commercial templates bad for the community?

I must have missed the part where Liine suggested they wished to attract commercial developers to the platform.

@m127

you are too narrow-minded to differentiate between "being inspired" and "copycating". But I do agree that sometimes the borderline is blurry. Yesterday I did take time to analyze the available resources for chord generating and the solutions already present in user-base libraries and if I follow your logic I would came to the conclusion that enChord is a 100% copy cat and there is NOTHING innovative in it. The concepts and solution was already present:

1. It seems that enChord copies many solutions/logic implemented much earlier in Synleor plugin for example. I mean: suggestion system, magnetic notes, scale degrees, etc. And Synleor seems to be much more advanced in terms of harmony rules and theory.

2. The bank system or parameter recall was available in free user base or free premium templates long before enChord appeared - you can find them in Jay's and AB's free templates.

3. Most (if not all) GUI scripting solutions used in enChord have already been present in available Lemur projects.

4. Here are the names of already existing chord solutions with "chord": chorder, chorderator, midichord, chord, chord! Is enChord original? Even from linguistic perspective? By no means - it is derived from the verb "chord" plus prefix "en" - just a standard word formation process. Originality comes from it being a verb - there aren't many products that have a verb as a name (and it is for a reason).

So it seems that the developer took already existing ideas and compiled into Lemur script and threatened to sue everyone who will copy his work. Which part? Bank system - already present, logic and methodology - already present, GUI solutions - already present. So following your logic - enChord is a shameless copycat.

However, we can also say enChord was inspired by the things I have already mentioned and combined/optimized them into a new product.

And my rC was also inspired - but not by enChord - I haven't even watched the complete video until yesterday. It was inspired by Tonespace chorder - is it a copy? - by no means. I was inspired by Korg Oasys I used to love and cherish - it had pads that could store the keys pressed on the keyboard - does rC copy that? - by no means - in fact it can't do this. Is the name "reCHORDER" a copycat - it was inspired by "recorder" as an instrument or device - you don't have to have a PhD in applied linguistics to see that.

To prove that I am a thief you should:

- prove I used code (hacks as you call it) from enChord
- show a single GUI concept/item I have copied from enChord (and which is unique to enChord)
- prove the concept is actually based on enChord.

If you can't, there is a legal term for what you are doing "slander" and you are a lier and slanderer.

Inspiration is the driving force of all humans - we are all inspired - first of all by creation (or nature as many say), other people and things they make. Lemur is not different in that respect - mainly what Lemur users do is to transfer solutions from other platforms and innovate on them within Lemur limitations. Or perhaps you are a ominous demigod (however, your claims surely point at that - you can examine Lemur projects remotely without even opening them and label them as "hacks" - that is surely a superhuman ability) and your projects are totally out of this world.

Hey all,

watching this thread again after a while make me feel ashamed... I mean, whats wrong with (some) of you? Dont you got anything else to do than jak-jak on the internet? Come down a bit...
However, thanks to all who respect my work and that I charge money for my masterpeace.
SequencomatV3 (full) is not compareable to all that iPad Apps. I know it, cause I do have all of them. Some of them match my (always free) V1, most tiny 99cent Apps fail even sync. Nice toys, but no tools. I wonder myself - but full V3 is still the most complex touchscreen sequencer available at all. There is Numerology - only on Mac - which is a beast I accept as competition - and guess what, prices even higher. However...nobody needs to buy. I only want satisfied users...and till now I only got.
Not sure if it was a joke from m127 to release SequenZomat for free. Just to say it: Lite version is open source, I even commented most parts, so I would appreciate others developing further and share.... (released CC, non commercial) but full license is not open in that way. Not allowed to share! Each individual patch got its own code parts... so if a user upload it to sharing plattform I can proof who was it and due to the lawyer I contacted in the beginning it is quite possible to get him pay for each download... hopefully that will never happen. But if, I will put lots of money on lawyers just to get this guy... I am a nice and friendly person, but if anyone fucks my baby I can turn really bad.
That said, I am out gain to the beach...

mat

artsUNMUTED wrote: To prove that I am

I don't have to prove anything. To me, it IS ALREADY CLEAR YOU are the Behringer of the Lemur small world of developers, a mere copycat who wants to play the smart ass and, idiotically, thinks "nobody is going to notice".

You said "smartly" customers can make their choice, right?

Well, I made mine. enChord is the actual only great and unique chord design tool that goes well beyond your sad 5% copycat and so it is superior. My call as a customer: enChord is superior to your shameless hack, and you don't have my respect as a customer, I don't respect hacks. Also as a customer, to me you are a sugar-coating bs copycat that does not deserve my money nor the money of my friends. While they prefer to be silent about it, I told you already that I call it like it is and don't give a damn whether you like it or not...

Go ahead and sue me... Oh, but wait!!!.. by the way, you hypocrite, aren't YOU the one complaining about the possibility of getting sued for your copycat habits? Yet now YOU are threatening me with all your "legal" "real life" linguistically linguist linguistic rhetoric?

FUCK YOU hypocrite. OK like this? Or do you need it any clearer?


Now, don't get so drama-queenish about what you shamelessly did. If Tonespace, Korg or Avantgarde Sound burn your behringerish ass, it is their choice not mine. But as a Lemur user for a LOOONG time, I don't find it funny a sugar-coating hypocrite like you wants to play the smart ass at the expense of our community, then call our community library "mediocre", etc.

@Mat

I think, reading in a rush, you missed the point of m127 when he stated he's going to release Sequenzomat lol.....

Anyways, just chimed in again in the thread to let you know I have been enjoying Sequencomat Lite indeed - it is a nice sequencer. I would be intrigued to buy the full version too, just to support you as a developer (I dont particularly "need" the extra features) but without wanting to criticize your pricing policy (its your right to charge whatever you think for your work) I simply cannot justify 100 euros for a Lemur - max/MSP combined application. With all respect to your work of course, thats only my personal opinion, and one should also bare in mind the differences in incomes of each country to better understand anyone's judgement on pricing - and I dont want to start an argument on this really.

The fact of course that there is a Lite version adds up to the respect...

mat wrote: Not sure if it was a joke from m127 to release SequenZomat for free.

Of course I was kidding, buddy.
If you have a fan since the JM days here, that's me.
I would NEVER fuck you up like that. I am a man of honor. Big old style fan here .

On the contrary, if anybody does, just let me know to see if I can help. I could be a witness or whatever. I downloaded your work many times to learn more about the Lemur environment, and I happen to keep all versions of everything.

With that "SequenZoMat release" comment, I was just putting in perspective how we could just destroy someone's contributions and efforts so easily in detriment of OUR OWN interest as a community. We all know the advanced devs here are only a few, somehow they keep contributing so far, but I would not be surprised you would not want to do that anymore if I were to fuck you up like that, would you?

Regretfully, some here feel "entitled" or "justified" to do just that, and they affect the community and its potential as a whole. I have seen many templates clearly inspired by SequencoMat and enChord and ABreakpoint. It is just pathetic some of them do not even have the delicacy to acknowledge their "inspiration" and "originality"... I mean, really? Fuck that forever.

Just to say it: Lite version is open source, I even commented most parts, so I would appreciate others developing further and share.... (released CC, non commercial) but full license is not open in that way.

And that's fair. I asked enChord's dev about this because I wanted to modify enChord to my personal needs. He said I was allowed to further customized it as per the license but not share these personalized work, but then, guess what? He HELPED me customize it to my needs! That's more than fair, and I definitely will not share anything, simply OUT OF RESPECT for someone who created a very innovative tool that I could get for a few coins, and then helped me personalize it, AND in the process made me a better Lemur programmer... Man, really? Come on!

We need advanced devs. We want to cherish them. But of course, we want advanced devs who also act honorably, we don't need nor want behringers here.

I am a nice and friendly person, but if anyone fucks my baby I can turn really bad.
That said, I am out gain to the beach...
mat

All the power to you, Mat!

Still, whenever someone tries to fuck with your baby, [color=#BF0000]let them do so[/color], say nothing, and let their copycat grow and grow, just so that when you burn their sorry brain-dry asses it hurts them more, and your damage repair compensation is bigger.

[color=#800000]As clearly found everywhere, intellectual copyright work becomes the property of the author as soon as it is functional and created and/or published. No fucking way around it. So just relax, and enjoy the beach![/color]

@m127

I really can't argue with such advanced logic "it generates chords so it is a copycat" so I just give up. Call me Behringer or whatever - I really don't care. And I don't need your money. But in the place I live before you call somebody a thief you have to have more solid evidence and also there is a presumption of innocence. You haven't proven anything. I have no more words for you. But I am sure you will have to have your last or many. Good luck.

So let's say, as a hypothetical, I purchase enChord or qbEdit . . . Liine update Lemur and introduce bugs or regressions that adversely affect the function of my shiny new template.

What is my redress?

@Joe

Something like that have already happened during the retina transition - the update screwed visual sugar bs in my templates - and the text and other elements looked awful on iPad 1. I informed the users and I was ready to issue separate versions for iPad 1 - fortunately Liine fixed it.

But yes, it is quite possible something like that can happen in the future. I would do all my best to rewrite the code to accommodate the change. If it is not possible and the template failed to work as advertised, I would give you a full refund. Firstly, Lemur templates have marginal impact on my income... secondly, I want to be fair even though it is not really my fault. I had about 10 cases of people who bought my templates not realizing they need Liine Lemur (despite clear information in the store) - they got full refund even though I was not obliged to do this. I am trying to be fair - of course apart from the moments I am copycating others' projects.

Sounds good.

But since I only purchased Lemur to run qbEdit, do you also undertake to refund me the cost of the "runtime" also? Or am I now stuck with the cost of Lemur?

m127 wrote: Liine definitely must take care of the advanced users that are making the Lemur a better platform and overall product. It's in their interest do so. If they are disabled from seeing the advantages of power users creating powerful/professional templates, I guarantee this Liine incarnation of the Lemur project will fail due to lack of commercial strategy and vision, just like JazzMutant did.

We (I) went over all these points a week ago...

Traxus wrote:Tell you what, if Lemur was a free app, I would be a bit more hesitant to charge or pay for anything built. I mean, it would have to be through the roof either way (I would have paid $10 to $15 for Live Control on Touch OSC). However it is, as apps stand, on the higher end of prices, and liine uses this community and it's library as a selling point. I'm not going to work my ass off to build something that helps them get paid while I, at best, get a bit of SEO to my site. I will pay my dues to the community, but I'm not laying over the barbed wire just to be recognized as a hero. This isn't bitterness towards Liine either, as far as I can tell they remain neutral on the whole subject and sensibly so. Free stuff is great for their product, but to demand it is bad business sense, so as far as PR goes it is a good subject to avoid. Add to that the free marketing they receive, as I've mentioned in earlier posts. At the same time, its asinine to go up to them and demand they pay you for a template you think is phenomenal. So what is there to do but let the market decide?

Many of us agree, it might benefit from further attention.

m127 wrote: As far as I know, templates for sale have hundreds of users, Mat does too. This means without doubt that people, not you two or Wul, people in general (those several hundreds users of paid templates) are willing to pay for good templates and resources.

I'm sorry, do you know how floored I would be to have 100 users who paid $10 a pop for my product? Let alone if Mat had 100 at £100 pounds, gross profit of £10,000? So basiclly 1/20th of the 2,000 lemur users (don't know where that number came from but lets roll with it) bought is product? If that is the case, that is ****ing awesome Mat, but I somehow doubt it, nor do I expect him to reveal any numbers.

This thread has jumped the shark several times, most recently:

Joe Soap wrote:Okay . . . as concisely as possible, because I've spent too much time and mental energy thinking about this.

Firstly - I don't think there's any putting the genie back in the bottle or dissuading the commercial guys from attempting to establish a market for their efforts.

Secondly - I don't disagree on principle that they have every right in a free society do do so . . . but as has become abundantly clear, this development isn't without issues or complications, especially around a product of this nature.

Art meets Commerce . . . it's a bit like drums, bass, guitar et vox. It's all been done before, John.

And so it is what it is - the market will decide, and we will either figure out how to peacefully and hopefully fruitfully co-exist as a community of artists or we won't.

Whole lotta silly bullshyte went down in this thread, I will put my hand up and take responsibility for my part in that. I urge people now to examine their own motivations, as I have mine (conclusion: not entirely selfless . . . ) and let's move on.

Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with people making a buck from their hard work, if they think there's a market there and they can defend it from being eaten from the bottom up by genuine community effort well then fair play.

While acknowledging Macciza's arguments about quality concerns re: bad commercial templates reflecting poorly on Lemur as a product or platform - I think any such concern appears misplaced when directed toward aU. His stuff absolutely shows off Lemur, regardless of whether there's any truly advanced scripting involved or not. I used Cubendo for years - and his work looks like fantastic value.

Much of what the commercial guys use as justification for their actions rings true - the cupboard is a bit bare in terms of plug n' play content. Liine haven't really addressed this and I've come to accept that given the size and makeup of the company . . . as I perceive it, but I have no insider knowledge . . .they probably can't - relying instead on a groundswell of community support.

The commercial experiment . . . who knows, as distasteful as some find it, might be the shot in the arm the platform needs (and I think it needs one, as things stand).

Far more distasteful than the act of selling templates itself . . . have been some of the underlying attitudes and assumptions underpinning certain arguments in support of commercialisation.

That cuts both ways, to a certain degree.

So there it is.

Everything worth pulling from this discussion is up there. What we have now is the degradation of a 13+ page thread into intellectual pissing match between two talented people who are stinking the entire forum up with their argument. *Please* take it else where. Hire an attorney or something. Since the inception of this thread, the quality of posts on the forum have plummeted as has our collective productivity. As a moderator for other forums myself, I can say one thing, what this thread has become is absolutely bad for the community. For the love of god, behave yourselves and find another medium to resolve your conflict, please stop bumping this thread.

There's been nothing intellectual about this pissing match!

So when are you gonna apply to be a mod then Traxus? It is the next step in the masterplan, no?

Joe Soap wrote:There's been nothing intellectual about this pissing match!

So when are you gonna apply to be a mod then Traxus? It is the next step in the masterplan, no?

*pissing match over intellectual property.

And I've got doubts as to whether a moderator whom also has a for profit template would fly, especially considering liine's need to stay neutral on this subject for the time being.

@Traxus

This thread should have been moderated immediately when it started to get derailed with insults, accusations etc. I am sorry for my contribution - but nobody has ever called me a thief - neither in real nor virtual life. It was not a pissing content on my side... But probably it would be better if I ignore this shower of insults. I will. And my great apology for the mess.

@Joe
We all run the risk of all products being outdated and not supported despite our time investment. NI Kore anyone? I have got a massive library of custom patches with no future. There is a huge chance my MC Pro will not support Nuendo 7 (my main DAW) due to Avid policy. I am sure neither Steinberg nor Avid will make up for my time spent on learning and customizing this device. And the costs of Lemur + $$ for the template are really minimal...

You keep saying that.

The email quoted by wul would seem to contradict this supposed "neutrality", I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of said communication.

That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

And to keep all the disenfranchised genius programmers that are scared away by the non-commercial nature of the platform . . . X-Code and the AppStore are ---> thataway.

Anyway, it's been fun watching you guys claim that you (partially) sell Lemur licenses on the back of your templates when the reality is quite the opposite . . . then turn around and complain bitterly when that same low barrier to entry threatens to bite ys in the ass.

Also enjoyed the simultaneous downplaying of revenues involved (the userbase is much MUCH larger than forum membership would suggest) while claiming these paltry sums are such a huge incentive to draw talent to the fold.

And so . . . has my original question been answered?

Joe Soap wrote: That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

My full support for paid content comes since the JM days. I suggested it several times. I have some professional work done that I have not shared because I do not believe in this idealist model (which has NOT worked to its full potential), and the fact is that the vast majority do not believe in it either, with some welcome exceptions, like AB.

They would not have to rebuild anything whatsoever, but just implement certain features. Namely, for example:

- A commercial developers section in the forum.
- Support sections in the forum for each developer/brand.
- An in-app purchase system from Lemur for all this commercial content.
- Since all of the above have a cost for Liine, Liine could create a FAIR fee scheme for developers, like Apple does.
- A third file type only available for commercial developers so their work is protected (Dexter was a mere template, remember? And it was CLOSED to third party development).
- As with any other such scheme, Liine could reserve the right to accept or reject pro devs based on fair conditions of service and reputation.

Benefits:

- Additional quality content.
- More Lemur users because of the attractiveness of said additional content.
- An extra source of income for Liine.
- More pro devs attracted to develop specifically for Lemur.
- Liine could keep working from within Apple via iPad, BUT W8 supports multitouch too, and MIDI support multitouch for W8 is coming; ie., Liine does not have limit themselves to Apple or to anything, a new multitouch hw could be produced as well.

Other points:

- The only-share model has already been tried for many years. Lemur has not grown to its full potential in 10 years. Fact.
- When JM attempted to sell premium content, they FAILED, because it was super overpriced (remember several hundred euros for the Dexter upgrade?) FAILURE, no commercial vision
- When JM released the Mu for free, it failed because numerous similar tools came up at the same time. These tools were more attractive overall.
- Nothing would change for the worse really: the user community library would still be there, and all users and new users can still share if that's what they want to do. The commercial implementation would be an addition to the existing model and would not technically be affected in any way.
- The market still decides, as ALWAYS. Fact: commercial templates have several hundreds of users. Ie., fact: people are indeed willing to pay for quality content.
- Commercial devs still have their own reputation to take care of; the market automatically takes care of this. When a dev fucks up, the community whines; when the community has grounds, the dev is fucked, usually for good. I doubt any rational dev out there wants to fuck himself up. Doubt it.


just from the top of my head, but there's material to build up from.


FOSTER GROWTH, MONETIZATION, BUSINESS because all successful models are based on this: a reversed domino effect so Lemur expands in all directions.

Joe Soap wrote:
That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

I don't think that either of those are viable, rebuilding the app sounds like a hefty, unprofitable task, basically navigating away from the .jzml file into something more like a .dll that also included licensing... and writing a EULA to prevent sale of templates is like saying you cant sell anything you write in a word processor we sold you. Once paid for, its your tool to do as you wish vis-a-vis all of the laws allowing the jail breaking of iOs devices...

I've batted around a couple of other, equally un-viable ideas. If the sky rained money and Lemur became a free app, a EULA preventing the sale of templates *seems* like it would be more reasonable and enforceable (enforceable with all of the money they would have to pay their lawyers with). Alternately, if they were to hire out creation of/buy out existing templates for software and perhaps drop the price of the app, it might seem more appealing to the masses as an affordable one stop shop for touch screen software control. (but how do you decide how much a template is worth..?)

And of course, a fifth possible position, they continue to remain neutral on the matter and let the market decide regarding payed templates. Laws regarding prior art are always in effect, copycats take a legal risk that quite frankly, liine has no hand nor investment in. Except maybe (please) when their discussion board becomes a medium for violently resolving such issues.

But alas, I'm bumping a thread that I very much want to see fade into the archives.

[edit] minor silliness removed - no bones broken

The options I outlined earlier obviously exclude a middle somewhere along the line too, which is to do nothing.

It's probably very amusing to the guys, watching us debate the Future Of The Platform / Company like we had a seat on the friggen board, if they take much notice at all.

WHERE ARE THE MODERATORs?

I'd seriously recommend Przemek to contact his lawyer to

a) kick m127's ass OR AT LEAST
b) force the owner of this forum to delete all allegations AND to better moderate it in the future

I would expect a consequent and clear statement from Liine here. Not on the topic itself but on fact that they DO NOT ACCEPT the style of m127 at all. To protect the community and themselves.

I know the internet is full of crap people. But in similar threads I participated in the past the community at least tried to keep that away from their community. Kind of inherent housekeeping. A fact that makes it even worse here. So many people simply continue the discussion w/o reflecting about m127's unacceptable and legally relevant allegations. Come on guys ... until Liine jumps in to sort it out, YOU should protect the community from this bullshit blaiming based on NO FACTS.

OK! EVERYBODY JUST CALM DOWN!!

Let's everyone just take a bit of time out and try to relax a little.
It is one thing to discuss 'possibilities' and another to make allegations.
It would be great if we could discuss the issue with out attacking other players . . .
Pms have been sent to various members about their behaviour . . .

This is a very complex issue with many various opinions on different sides of the central issue - Commercial templates effect on the community . . .

I personally don't really like the idea of 'commercialised' templates being promoted for a variety of reasons . . .
I feel that it could negatively affect the OpenSource Community through theft and a reluctance to post due to possible theft . .
This has occured in other openly-editable development environments ie M4L - where 'free' content has been repackaged as 'commercial' by others . . .
I dislike the idea of 'in-app' purchases and even more so if it ends up with many variants of common themes and no way to judge quality before purchase . . .

So far we have already seen some Lemur packages 're-packaged' with various shortcomings in attributions - the most recent being 'Mu 1.3' - not overly impressed by that, but awaiting further details . . .
The possibility of this sort of thing happening only increases with commercialisation - and it should be something that is overseen, but who would do that?
And then the requirement for Liine to admin the whole system as well would take time I would rather they spent developing, rather then chasing trademark violations . . .
Already there seem to be people who are prepared to claim as much ground as they can without clear guidelines or any control (on either side) . .
I think it is something that Liine would rather not get too involved in due to the potential 'can of worms' that it could end up being . . .
If people are hell-bent on 'monetising' their particular idea, maybe another environment is more suitable - like an actual iOS app rather than a Lemur project . . . Or 'donationware' . . .

Anyway - as I said earlier my main concern is how we continue as an 'open-source' community with regard to the 'commercialistion' efforts . . .
My initial response is to make it quite clear that all my stuff is for Non-Commericial Use without specific authorisation otherwise . . .
How on earth I can possibly try to enforce this I don't know but without it I am leaving myself completely open . . .
And if I have to purchase peoples offerings in order to find out then I may not ever actually know . . .

oh and re Dexter - Dexter was not paid-content for Lemur software but a firmware option for Lemur hardware - the Legacy Lemur was a FPGA that could have different firmware loaded.