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commercial templates bad for the community?
Started by artsUNMUTED on .
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Lol Joe!!!!
@SoftCore: I don't care what Liine has to say about Unmuted ars copying enchord nor am I calling them to referee anything. As an enChord user I can see what went on by myself. I personally do not support copycats who also put down our user community library. Check the facts: template release dates, video release dates, features, workflow procedures, GUI. What was like enChord before enChord? Nothing. He even called it "reChorder" for fucks sake.
Maybe I will "create" and sell SequenzoMat... Or to quote you: Pfffffff.
I am not talking either about giving a few coins to power users like if they were beggars on the street. I am talking about a true monetizing strategy that can and would attract many more code geniuses out there. There are aplenty. Make it so powerful and monetized that even standalone music ipad app coders would rather develop for the Lemur platform. Such horde of pro devs in here would make Lemur way more powerful not only in commercial templates availability, but this would be a reversed domino effect that would foster Lemur growth in all directions.
As far as I know, templates for sale have hundreds of users, Mat does too. This means without doubt that people, not you two or Wul, people in general (those several hundreds users of paid templates) are willing to pay for good templates and resources.
@Joe Soap: yeah, your line of thought is precisely what prevents me and probably many others from releasing templates. I wonder how many users prefer to keep their templates for themselves. To further put it in perspective, how many years do we have with the Lemur project? 10? So it's not like this peace-share-hippie-love model has not been tried. Lemur is far from what it should be by now. Fact.
Maybe I will "create" and sell SequenzoMat... Or to quote you: Pfffffff.
I am not talking either about giving a few coins to power users like if they were beggars on the street. I am talking about a true monetizing strategy that can and would attract many more code geniuses out there. There are aplenty. Make it so powerful and monetized that even standalone music ipad app coders would rather develop for the Lemur platform. Such horde of pro devs in here would make Lemur way more powerful not only in commercial templates availability, but this would be a reversed domino effect that would foster Lemur growth in all directions.
As far as I know, templates for sale have hundreds of users, Mat does too. This means without doubt that people, not you two or Wul, people in general (those several hundreds users of paid templates) are willing to pay for good templates and resources.
@Joe Soap: yeah, your line of thought is precisely what prevents me and probably many others from releasing templates. I wonder how many users prefer to keep their templates for themselves. To further put it in perspective, how many years do we have with the Lemur project? 10? So it's not like this peace-share-hippie-love model has not been tried. Lemur is far from what it should be by now. Fact.
OMG Look & Feel LAWSUITARMAGEDDEON!11
OMG!!! Or Look and Feel ErectileDisfunctionArmageddon!!!!!! 
Or worse!, CowardPussyArmageddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, where do I go here to disable the "delete" post feature in these forums again?
Or worse!, CowardPussyArmageddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, where do I go here to disable the "delete" post feature in these forums again?
Dunno.m127 wrote:OMG!!! Or Look and Feel ErectileDisfunctionArmageddon!!!!!!
Or worse!, CowardPussyArmageddon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, where do I go here to disable the "delete" post feature in these forums again?
@m127
You are very aggressive and all what I am going to write will probably be a waste of my time.
1) I started rC long before enChord was released. Period. The name was also devised before this project hit the market. And it is not a name copycat - it is much better from linguistic perspective.
2) enChord guy didn't invent ANYTHING new. There have been already many tools for chords like Tonespace plugin - or perhaps they have also copied enChord directly from the brain of the developer.
3) The memory bank system was ready before enChord was released. I based it on the memory bank system in Korg Oasys workstation I used to own which allowed you to save your chords. Period. You are not experienced enough.
4) It took me 2 months to code as I said. Add to this testing, manual, promo video with my music created for the promo, demos. And it was all done in my free time - I have got my daily job, support for other projects, other projects in progress etc.
It was just the matter of coincidence that both projects hit the market in similar timeframe. I haven't bought enChord either. Don't accuse other people of lying if you don't have well-grounded evidence. Now back to Lemur.
You are very aggressive and all what I am going to write will probably be a waste of my time.
1) I started rC long before enChord was released. Period. The name was also devised before this project hit the market. And it is not a name copycat - it is much better from linguistic perspective.
2) enChord guy didn't invent ANYTHING new. There have been already many tools for chords like Tonespace plugin - or perhaps they have also copied enChord directly from the brain of the developer.
3) The memory bank system was ready before enChord was released. I based it on the memory bank system in Korg Oasys workstation I used to own which allowed you to save your chords. Period. You are not experienced enough.
4) It took me 2 months to code as I said. Add to this testing, manual, promo video with my music created for the promo, demos. And it was all done in my free time - I have got my daily job, support for other projects, other projects in progress etc.
It was just the matter of coincidence that both projects hit the market in similar timeframe. I haven't bought enChord either. Don't accuse other people of lying if you don't have well-grounded evidence. Now back to Lemur.
Think I'll call my version disChord.
All Hail . . .
All Hail . . .
nm
or disCHORDia (good for conclave times) or uroCHORD. harpsiCHORD is already taken - somebody dared to name an instrument and it can generate chords as well. Copycats everywhere.
Sincerely, I dont think the "peace-share-hippie-love model" is to blame for the sucesss (or not) of the Lemur app - by the way, that is your definition of the model, which I find quite biased. Its not as if Lemur is the only thing based on a community-sharing model. And actually to put it in perspective, in the few years that MaxForLive is around, how many commercial MaxForLive devices are there out there, compared to the free ones?m127 wrote:To further put it in perspective, how many years do we have with the Lemur project? 10? So it's not like this peace-share-hippie-love model has not been tried. Lemur is far from what it should be by now. Fact.
The fact that there are people willing to buy good templates doesnt change the fact that many more people are willing to buy the app in the first place because there are free templates to download. Developers of paid templates have already stated that the income is not that big and cannot be considered a full-time job (and in fact I believe them), directly implying the amount of people willing to buy templates is not that big as you present it to be.
And one other food for thought would be, regardless if we like it or not, the whole industry is "shifted" towards the amateur side - Liine can't base the viability of their product based on a select few, well-paid proffesionals - this model has been tried too, Midas has been bought by Behringer lol.
I think thats also the main reason Lemur went from a dedicated-hardware solution to an iOS app in the first place. I dont think we can base our assumptions about the project's success by adding the years it was a rather expensive dedicated hardware-software solution (Jazzmutant years).
Looking at it in a strict business model, Sequensomat costs 100euros plus 50 for having bought Lemur (minus 50 if you make a video of it). Now that we are in the era of iOS one would probably say.......... "oh really"?
Its a competitive market out there!
Finally what Im trying to say is,
1. When talking about the morals of the matter, you want to make a good innovative template and sell it? Fine,go ahead, just dont base that decision on the notion "giving away is hippie-communist retarded stuff". This statement is directly insulting and I dont think anyone in here ever called anyone selling templates a money-sucker capitalist pig who will always be empty inside. If you get me.....
2. If we are talking in a strict business-economy model, some things still dont make sense or are not viable solutions!
Goodmorning!
To summarize,artsUNMUTED wrote:@m127
You are very aggressive and all what I am going to write will probably be a waste of my time.
1) I started rC long before enChord was released. Period. The name was also devised before this project hit the market. And it is not a name copycat - it is much better from linguistic perspective.
2) enChord guy didn't invent ANYTHING new. There have been already many tools for chords like Tonespace plugin - or perhaps they have also copied enChord directly from the brain of the developer.
3) The memory bank system was ready before enChord was released. I based it on the memory bank system in Korg Oasys workstation I used to own which allowed you to save your chords. Period. You are not experienced enough.
4) It took me 2 months to code as I said. Add to this testing, manual, promo video with my music created for the promo, demos. And it was all done in my free time - I have got my daily job, support for other projects, other projects in progress etc.
It was just the matter of coincidence that both projects hit the market in similar timeframe. I haven't bought enChord either. Don't accuse other people of lying if you don't have well-grounded evidence. Now back to Lemur.
1. you are a shameless copycat, and YOU are the proof for all of Macciza statements regarding this thread. I.e., you will help yourself better if you just stop talking.
2. you are a hypocrite who talks about "contribution" and complains about the community not welcoming your sugar coated bs yet you put our user community library down and called it "mediocre" compared to your copycat hacks. You disrespected the user community first. Any of AB or Mat or Avantgarde Sound contributions, free or not, are superior to anything you have done, just for starters.
3. You also put down the Lemur and called it a "HELL" to set it up... really? You make business out of it selling your copycat hacks and yet you call it "hell"? That's why you are like a low level thief, Lemur is FAR from being difficult to set up, and its difficulty is well within the levels of related professional music tools, like a DAW, a soundcard, etc.
4. enChord is far superior to your copycat hack, and it is fantastic and vastly evident per se that you cannot understand its depth, so you just copied one of enChord's procedures and layout but missed the "jewels" in there, just like a low level ignorant thief who sees a 20 dollar bill and a Picasso on the wall, takes the 20 dollar bill and runs, hahaha. TIME WILL CONFIRM THIS.
@Mat: be advised that "I came up" with the idea of an app for Lemur called "SequenzoMat" years before you did, and I will release it tomorrow.
@AB: I must inform you that I am about to release "BA Bundle" and also "BAreakpoint", which are the linguistically the better the linguistical, and it was my idea long before your grandpa was born.
@Liine: Tomorrow I will be releasing "Phemur" under the brand "MutatingJazz Linee", I came up with this idea before you all did, everything is a coincidence, which is linguistical the better linguistically.
lol.....Im tempted...How much Sequenzomat is going to cost?
Honestly I do agree with some of your points regarding the references to mediocricy about the user library...
Honestly I do agree with some of your points regarding the references to mediocricy about the user library...
@m127 - You call me a thief (and copycat, hypocrite)... mind you, this is a serious accusation in real life. Further discussion on enChord and my puny copycat suger-coated bs attempts are pointless.
Man, honestly, blatantly copying creative concepts and not even innovating or improving anything at all on them and yet selling them (because anything else is "mediocre" and "hell") is of the worst pathetic nature.Softcore wrote:lol.....Im tempted...How much Sequenzomat is going to cost?
Honestly I do agree with some of your points regarding the references to mediocricy about the user library...
He literally used the words "*I* came up" with the idea in his video. He said it took him "2 months", yet he released 3 months after enChord. Further, take a look at his website, he called his copycat "unique", even if he released way after enChord, which still can do 90% more than his hack.
LOL, I have two "unique" ideas about the cost of SequenZoMat:
1. It will cost (let me check Mat's website... done) 50 euros, but if you make a video, it will cost you 25 euros
2. I will just release it for free because I am mad and jealous my brain is dry of ideas and I couldn't come up with it before, so I will just copy SequencoMat and give it away because "sharing is loving" (ala Wul), this way Mat will be fucked, and cause him to never release anything for Lemur ever again.
3. I have a third idea: AB, Mat, AvantGarde Sound, and Jay and others' contributions, free or not, are "mediocre" and Lemur is "hell"... luv it!
Exactly. And ANYONE can corroborate this by comparing the two products in question and their videos:artsUNMUTED wrote:Further discussion on enChord and my puny copycat suger-coated bs attempts are pointless.
http://avantgardesound.com/
Video Published on [color=#BF0000]Dec 22, 2012[/color]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=o-jZjvJOpdo
Concept and Development time as per developer: "Started since 2004"
http://www.artsunmuted.com/rc/rc.html
Video Published on [color=#BF0000]Feb 28, 2013[/color]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=Ah-W41Zsf0k
Concept and Development time as per developer: "2 months"
Was first: enChord
Innovation: enChord
Superior features: enChord
Superior workflow speed: enChord
Yes, Unmuted Ass, you are a sugar-coating bs hypocrite in virtual and in real life.
But don't worry, you only got to copy a mere 5% of enChord's power and depth, like a low level ignorant thief who can't distinguish the value of a Picasso next to a 20 dollar bill.
And yeah, according to you our user library is full of "mediocrity" and Lemur is "hell", so please add to your "serious accusation" the following SERIOUS request: f u c k off.
It's gonna be great to have wul's CHORDuroyPants version to play with!
Wow...I had seen enchord when I was searching info for Lemur (before having bought it) but I hadnt paid attention to it.....Now that I can understand what's it all about.....VERY impressive!
It's TOTALLY worth copying from. 
I suspect it may build on prior art, however.
I suspect it may build on prior art, however.
@m127 Your language and rhetoric is really below any acceptable standards (is this forum moderated?). I didn't say Lemur is "hell" to configure - I quoted a French composer. I run a 3 iPad setup on Mac and PC and never had any issues. Now, if you can read with understanding, take time to have a look below.
@everyone reading this thread:
I was called a thief so give a few minutes of your time for my defense:
1) rC is not a copycat of enChord - it is a totally different approach to chord generation based on the keyboard, chord type and inversion. It is based on the Tonespace plugin that has been available for a long time (version 2.03 available). It was the general idea of Steven Davis - a accomplished Hollywood composer - to have Tonespace functionality in a Lemur template. And rC is based on Tonespace concept, which is INVERSION>CHORD TYPE>KEY. And it is totally different from enCHORD (at least based on the video on yt - I don't own it). It is based - not copied - because the concept is not proprietary and my GUI and solutions are different.
2) enChord seems to be great - no doubt about it. But all claims that rC is a copycat and there is nothing creative in it - it is unjust and false. rC is a tool created with DAW workflow in mind - it has got full velocity, CC1 and CC7 control for each note in the chord. Also you can send each note to different MIDI channel. And they can be store with each chord. To my best knowledge, these functions are not present in enChord.
3) The memory system stores chord note name, chord name, inversion name, CC1, CC7, velocities and MIDI channel information. enChorder doesn't have it. Also you can control which parameters you want to recall.
4) rC's GUI doesn't copy any single element from enChorder - aesthetically and functionally. The visual difference is dramatic (with no superiority claimed) and anybody who tells that it is a copy-cat must be blind or have some kind of agenda/very strong bias.
5) rC doesn't have all functions of enChord - does it mean it is a copycat? I don't need bells and whistles to tell me which chord or modulation to play - I don't need AI to create my harmonies. rC is just a "chord" generator. But I do claim it is "unique" it its functions and approach. The same as enChord.
I do think that products should defend themselves - it is customer's wallet to decided.
And believe me or not, today I watched the complete enChord video on yt - earlier I watched just few minutes - and for my own reasons I didn't want to watch it. But now I can understand wul's determination to create a free chord generator - there is a law suit threat in the video to "support further development". And m127 rhetorics is somehow reminiscent of it.
To finish I will quote a spontaneous email from an accomplished pianist who bough rC:
"First off, let me compliment you, sincerely, on your template "reCHORDER". I have 50 years of music appreciation, study and theory behind me, but I "LOVE" when something like this comes along. There's nothing wrong with approaching things from a different vantage point, especially where creativity is concerned. So, bravo..."
Let's users decide - products will defend themselves. But to call somebody publicly a thief is a complete different matter.
Again, sorry for my long post.
@everyone reading this thread:
I was called a thief so give a few minutes of your time for my defense:
1) rC is not a copycat of enChord - it is a totally different approach to chord generation based on the keyboard, chord type and inversion. It is based on the Tonespace plugin that has been available for a long time (version 2.03 available). It was the general idea of Steven Davis - a accomplished Hollywood composer - to have Tonespace functionality in a Lemur template. And rC is based on Tonespace concept, which is INVERSION>CHORD TYPE>KEY. And it is totally different from enCHORD (at least based on the video on yt - I don't own it). It is based - not copied - because the concept is not proprietary and my GUI and solutions are different.
2) enChord seems to be great - no doubt about it. But all claims that rC is a copycat and there is nothing creative in it - it is unjust and false. rC is a tool created with DAW workflow in mind - it has got full velocity, CC1 and CC7 control for each note in the chord. Also you can send each note to different MIDI channel. And they can be store with each chord. To my best knowledge, these functions are not present in enChord.
3) The memory system stores chord note name, chord name, inversion name, CC1, CC7, velocities and MIDI channel information. enChorder doesn't have it. Also you can control which parameters you want to recall.
4) rC's GUI doesn't copy any single element from enChorder - aesthetically and functionally. The visual difference is dramatic (with no superiority claimed) and anybody who tells that it is a copy-cat must be blind or have some kind of agenda/very strong bias.
5) rC doesn't have all functions of enChord - does it mean it is a copycat? I don't need bells and whistles to tell me which chord or modulation to play - I don't need AI to create my harmonies. rC is just a "chord" generator. But I do claim it is "unique" it its functions and approach. The same as enChord.
I do think that products should defend themselves - it is customer's wallet to decided.
And believe me or not, today I watched the complete enChord video on yt - earlier I watched just few minutes - and for my own reasons I didn't want to watch it. But now I can understand wul's determination to create a free chord generator - there is a law suit threat in the video to "support further development". And m127 rhetorics is somehow reminiscent of it.
To finish I will quote a spontaneous email from an accomplished pianist who bough rC:
"First off, let me compliment you, sincerely, on your template "reCHORDER". I have 50 years of music appreciation, study and theory behind me, but I "LOVE" when something like this comes along. There's nothing wrong with approaching things from a different vantage point, especially where creativity is concerned. So, bravo..."
Let's users decide - products will defend themselves. But to call somebody publicly a thief is a complete different matter.
Again, sorry for my long post.
This is why and HOW you are killing any possibility for Liine to support "advanced" or talented developers for this platform, and this is how and why we probably won't be seeing as much quality content as we could have (see last TEN YEARS) from such developers, particularly thanks to those who support your shameless copying of others' hard work and creativity. This is why I do not share my templates either, even though I do share my time and opinions on what's best for the platform as well as technical advise to other users, specifically my friends, since the JazzMutant days.artsUNMUTED wrote: @everyone reading this thread:
1) rC is not a copycat of enChord - it is a totally different approach to chord generation
It was the general idea to have Tonespace functionality
And rC is based on Tonespace concept,
" I based it on the memory bank system in Korg Oasys workstation "
2) enChord seems to be great - no doubt about it.
rC is a tool created with DAW workflow in mind -
it has got full velocity, CC1 and CC7 control for each note in the chord.
3) The memory system stores chord note name, chord name,
4) rC's GUI doesn't copy any single element from enChord - aesthetically and functionally.
5) rC doesn't have all functions of enChord - does it mean it is a copycat? rC is just a "chord" generator. But I do claim it is "unique" it its functions and approach. The same as enChord.
But now I can understand wul's determination to create a free chord generator.
To finish
"First off".
So "Avantgarde Sound's enChord", "Korg Oasys" and "Tonespace" you said. OK, so you just admitted you copied several products without even any acknowledgement in "your" "unique" product website or manual... you only had space to talk about your "uniqueness"... Way to go!
But, again!, I already said I will join you and Joe and Wul, so you are preaching to the choir... "My original" and "unique" UPCOMING RELEASES: "SequenZoMat" and "BAreakpoint". Mat and Antonio, I don't give a damn you created SequencoMat or ABreakpoint first. You should know I am "entitled" to just f u c k you up, and I don't give a damn whether this will make you to not ever release anything else for this platform again. Everything was a "coincidence".
So "totally different approach", yeah, yeah, right.
Yet, you are correct on one thing only, your hack is not even a full copycat, it is a pitiful 5% copycat compared to enChord. At least BE FAIR to your uninformed customers, and price your hack accordingly: $1.45 USD (5% of enChord's price
)It is clear you priced it just a 10% below enChord's price (like in a lame competition scheme), and you are counting on uninformed customers, good for you. No surprise there either."To finish", yeah, like your "ghost" French composer "customer", there was a time when I used to think Behringer (a infamous company that has been in court multiple times for blatant copying) products were "unique" and "a totally different way". This "long time" lasted 5 minutes about 17 years ago. All I needed was to compare 1. purpose, 2. features, 3. names, 4. dates vs other "coincidentally" "similar" products. He clearly failed to do just that.
So yeah, there you are, you are the Behringer of the Lemur world along with other aspirants posting here (and now me!, SequenZoMat, coming soon!!)
All in all, about the actual OP, you completely fucking KILLED your case, had you had any.
But yeah, my dear 'UNMUTED Behringer', yes, ANYONE can corroborate what you did by comparing the two products in question and their videos:
http://avantgardesound.com/
Video Published on Dec 22, 2012: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=o-jZjvJOpdo
Concept and Development time as per developer: "Started since 2004"
http://www.artsunmuted.com/rc/rc.html
Video Published on Feb 28, 2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=Ah-W41Zsf0k
Concept and Development time as per developer: "2 months"
Add to that "Tonespace" and the "Korg OASYS" to realize you are a creative "genius".