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commercial templates bad for the community?
Started by artsUNMUTED on .
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I guess that's it then . The end of the line, as it were.
We might as well all act accordingly .
It was good while it lasted.
Well done. The few
We might as well all act accordingly .
It was good while it lasted.
Well done. The few
I just find a lot of it does not add up in my mind.
Yes it is 'programming' software but its not C++ or Objective C - lots can be done quite easily by novices, and we help them.
If you did not look at any of the public projects how can you say there 'just a few pro-level projects available'?
And what is this standard lemur target(ableton, dj etc) there are lots of different users of lemur in lots of different ways.
And what makes you think the free projects are 'mediocre' - there are some extremely good free projects, some quite unique too
There is existing projects that pretty much fully implement Mackie Control protocol and various Cubase generic remote stuff etc
For me this Forum is about community - and helping others out to achieve what they want and expand their knowledge/abilities etc
So I guess my main issue in it all is the lack of contribution on your part - apart from advertising a 'product' with hype . . .
Just imagine how we feel, as a community who helps each other out and an unknown someone comes along and offers nothing but 'product'
Surely you can understand that side of things - we know nothing about you - you could have a Masters Degree in Computer Programming or you could be a 'hack' . . .
You projects could be really efficient masterpieces of code or kludged together inefficient hacks - we have no idea - but you say your stuff is great and ours is no good.
I think if you had made some contributions to the community beyond your commercialisations the response would be quite different - it has been with others who provide both sell stuff but also contribute free stuff
It does not need to be anything massive - some helpful exchanges in a discussion, a little bit of code here or there, maybe a minor module - of course a lite version (like matts sequencomat) would be great too
So it creates the situation where I have to wonder whether I should look at selling modules for others to use in making there stuff - or to have to try to effect some sort of control through copyright ie CC BY-NC-SA
Or do I just keep contributing and eventually have someone take my work and possibly not attribute anything to me or contribute anything to the community
And there are many people here who have spent an awful lot of time on there own unique contributions or to helping others sort out other problems for mutual benefit
I guess it comes down to a kind of 'Contribute to the Community knowledge and we are all richer, as opposed to selling something to that community and them gaining little . . .
I would certainly be interested in seeing how you structured / coded your stuff - I am just not prepared to pay for it without any knowledge/proof of its quality or usefulness for me.
Yes it is 'programming' software but its not C++ or Objective C - lots can be done quite easily by novices, and we help them.
If you did not look at any of the public projects how can you say there 'just a few pro-level projects available'?
And what is this standard lemur target(ableton, dj etc) there are lots of different users of lemur in lots of different ways.
And what makes you think the free projects are 'mediocre' - there are some extremely good free projects, some quite unique too
There is existing projects that pretty much fully implement Mackie Control protocol and various Cubase generic remote stuff etc
For me this Forum is about community - and helping others out to achieve what they want and expand their knowledge/abilities etc
So I guess my main issue in it all is the lack of contribution on your part - apart from advertising a 'product' with hype . . .
Just imagine how we feel, as a community who helps each other out and an unknown someone comes along and offers nothing but 'product'
Surely you can understand that side of things - we know nothing about you - you could have a Masters Degree in Computer Programming or you could be a 'hack' . . .
You projects could be really efficient masterpieces of code or kludged together inefficient hacks - we have no idea - but you say your stuff is great and ours is no good.
I think if you had made some contributions to the community beyond your commercialisations the response would be quite different - it has been with others who provide both sell stuff but also contribute free stuff
It does not need to be anything massive - some helpful exchanges in a discussion, a little bit of code here or there, maybe a minor module - of course a lite version (like matts sequencomat) would be great too
So it creates the situation where I have to wonder whether I should look at selling modules for others to use in making there stuff - or to have to try to effect some sort of control through copyright ie CC BY-NC-SA
Or do I just keep contributing and eventually have someone take my work and possibly not attribute anything to me or contribute anything to the community
And there are many people here who have spent an awful lot of time on there own unique contributions or to helping others sort out other problems for mutual benefit
I guess it comes down to a kind of 'Contribute to the Community knowledge and we are all richer, as opposed to selling something to that community and them gaining little . . .
I would certainly be interested in seeing how you structured / coded your stuff - I am just not prepared to pay for it without any knowledge/proof of its quality or usefulness for me.
@Macciza
Thanks a lot for your insightful response. Just few comments:
1) Liine stuff told me that composers using sample libraries are not their main user base and target - that's my reference to the standard Lemur user.
2) I have checked the available projects after I have bought Lemur (when it was released) and nothing was of any interest to me due to my special needs. I didn't say that it is mediocre stuff - I only said that there we really lack off-the-shelf pro-level products that would appeal to broader group of users. "Medicore" wasn't aimed at anybody - I used this word to describe the attitude.
3) My coding is awful and puny compared to Jay's templates - I didn't say it was superior to anything - my first templates were a mess and in many aspects still are - but they work as expected - I just wanted to pay your attention to the scope of work and all the peripherals - it can't be done in a day or a week.
This discussion gets really apocalyptic but now I can understand the bitterness. Anyway I am getting back to testing my new project for 3 amazing Spitfire Albion libraries. I have made the template because it can't be found in the free or premium section on this website. I would buy it from anyone for $20 in a blink of an eye. But I can't find it either. Would you do it for free for me? Or for $20? Or for $200. Probably not because you value your time. Yes, it could be me who could share it for free... Would it be useful to you? For sure you could look at the coding and say it is not up to your standards. But there are some people who bought these libraries for 1000 GBP plus VAT and will not have any problems with spending additional $20 to have all the resources facilitating their workflow. As said I would buy it in a second.
I can see your points, though. My fault I didn't share anything or I haven't even asked for help on this forum - I was just too busy with my projects and life in general. I will do my best to take all of this into perspective. I will definitely not "advertise" on this forum again. And I will never "hack" anybody's work (and I have never done that).
Przemek
Thanks a lot for your insightful response. Just few comments:
1) Liine stuff told me that composers using sample libraries are not their main user base and target - that's my reference to the standard Lemur user.
2) I have checked the available projects after I have bought Lemur (when it was released) and nothing was of any interest to me due to my special needs. I didn't say that it is mediocre stuff - I only said that there we really lack off-the-shelf pro-level products that would appeal to broader group of users. "Medicore" wasn't aimed at anybody - I used this word to describe the attitude.
3) My coding is awful and puny compared to Jay's templates - I didn't say it was superior to anything - my first templates were a mess and in many aspects still are - but they work as expected - I just wanted to pay your attention to the scope of work and all the peripherals - it can't be done in a day or a week.
This discussion gets really apocalyptic but now I can understand the bitterness. Anyway I am getting back to testing my new project for 3 amazing Spitfire Albion libraries. I have made the template because it can't be found in the free or premium section on this website. I would buy it from anyone for $20 in a blink of an eye. But I can't find it either. Would you do it for free for me? Or for $20? Or for $200. Probably not because you value your time. Yes, it could be me who could share it for free... Would it be useful to you? For sure you could look at the coding and say it is not up to your standards. But there are some people who bought these libraries for 1000 GBP plus VAT and will not have any problems with spending additional $20 to have all the resources facilitating their workflow. As said I would buy it in a second.
I can see your points, though. My fault I didn't share anything or I haven't even asked for help on this forum - I was just too busy with my projects and life in general. I will do my best to take all of this into perspective. I will definitely not "advertise" on this forum again. And I will never "hack" anybody's work (and I have never done that).
Przemek
I've got no issue with commercial templates. Maybe just keep the commercial stuff off the Liine boards? Go advertise on KVR etc.
The fact is, that I am f.e. not at all interested in getting familiar with it. I'd really like to use my very limited time to make/enjoy making music. It simply frustrates me way too much to build my own templates. Since it takes too much time to get through all this little puzzles of coding and configurations, which I do not understand at allMacciza wrote:I just find a lot of it does not add up in my mind.
Yes it is 'programming' software but its not C++ or Objective C - lots can be done quite easily by novices, and we help them.
. And that only to make my templates "somehow acceptable" for my workflow? No ... Exactly. I came to lemur because of your ad to the Presonus forum. Your StudioOne template was great right from the beginning. Nothing equivalent exists out there. And it even was getting better with the latest extension to control included Presonus plugins. With the work you put into it you fully deserve to get money for it. I would never ever be able to achieve something like this at all.artsUNMUTED wrote:... I have made the template because it can't be found in the free or premium section on this website. I would buy it from anyone for $20 in a blink of an eye. But I can't find it either. Would you do it for free for me? Or for $20? Or for $200.
Even better, with the other commercial template I bought, enChord, the original price I paid for lemur is even less important to me anymore. I have my StudioOne under control, I can learn a lot about chords and all is fun controlled with lemur on my iPad. This is cool. Thanks to linee, arts/unmuted, enchord! I am looking for more professional templates. And I (!) am more than happy to pay for it
@Macciza: I repeat myself saying that commercial templates are also a win potential for you, since it attracts tremendously your platform. An effect that shouldn't be underestimated. Look f.e. to RapidWeaver or to u-he synthesizer plugins. There you get all this community stuff for free as well PLUS commercial, maintained end-2-end add ons/soundbanks. And that for me makes the whole packages/products complete. Not one of them, all together!
My 3.25 cents ... off now
I've got quite a bit to say on this topic. Admittedly, some of it is a bit of defensive hostility but try to take into account that it not directed towards any individual, and more a frame of mind.
I thought long and hard about the distribution model for my Serato Template, Traxus Scratch Live. I was considering something like a kick starter, where I would release the template to the public after raising enough to buy Serato's advanced audio interface, whereby I could make a template that supported 4 decks. I thought about landing users on pages and pages of banner ads, as well as a couple of other models, including releasing it for free. I eventually settled on $10 a pop, because that's what I would have paid if the template had not existed. As someone eluded to earlier, I made this template because I wanted and needed it, and nothing on the market fit the bill. I probably spent over 100 hours on it (partially due to overcoming the learning curve). There were 4 other contributors (people who gave advice along the way) involved. While none of them necessarily wrote anything that I used, I decided that if any of them showed interest, I would shoot them a free copy. Being that none of them seemed particularly interested in Serato, I generally opt to return the favor of giving advice in return whenever possible as well as throwing their websites some SEO juice on my blog when appropriate. I upload modules and lesser templates to the library as I see fit, but tend to hold onto the bits that I worked harder on, especially those of which I had to cut my own path to attain.
One of the reasons being, guys like Mat with Sequencomat, lABl, artsUNMUTED, more humbly myself, and anyone putting out templates, paid or unpaid, with advanced scripting, attention to ergonomics, aesthetics, and work flow are making Lemur look good. We are broadening the viability of the product in the eyes of potential consumers, making and editing videos, writing manuals and so forth. I paid a friend $100 to shoot and edit my video, and that was a huge favor on his behalf. Fact of the matter is we are putting hard dollars and man hours that would be expensive we’re you to contract them out into these projects. More importantly, while doing all of this we are subtly hyping the software/hardware being controlled as well as the Lemur platform; a platform that sells for $50 a license.
I’m not complaining about the cost, having learned the capabilities I think it is more than fair as a price point; nor am I insinuating that the developers are millionaires (but props if you are, you should be). I am saying that those of us who bust our balls to make and release really in depth templates are basically sexing up at least two entities that we have next to no stake in. Normally, a relationship like this would entail some type of attribution, or at least incentivization, but fact of the matter is, there is no real way to license an .xml (.jzml = .xml) file so this would be a moot request were it to be made. Mind you, I do have methods of tracking which file was distributed to which user, so the option to pursue someone who illegally redistributes remains open, but that is a side effect of my obfuscating the code more than anything else. The only other alternative is for liine to buy templates from us, and then include them in the default package, but I don’t think any of us are going to nag/expect them to do that. It is somewhat undue entitlement.
I sometimes get the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that the Liine staff holds disdain towards for profit templates. Should that be the case I hope the above paragraphs help to explain why someone could become rather irate about that. On a similar note, I see users who have nothing, or next to nothing contributed to the user library become passive aggressive towards users who release paid templates. That kind of hypocrisy should speak for itself. We have a phenomenal community here. As far as forums go, the pissing matches are few and far between and we are a rather productive bunch which is certainly why I choose to hang around, or bother writing 1000+ words on this subject. I just fear that too many of us are looking at the idea of paid templates from a bottom up approach.
Think of it the other way, what if it became apparent to other developers that making lemur templates was worth the sweat and hassle. Probably a long shot the way things stand now, but imagine if the community got flooded with 50 or so coders on or above the level of our finest. Some of you might cringe at the idea (our little niche might not be so little), but you have to agree, that would work wonders for the Lemur product and by extension the community. $10 for a comprehensive template for Reason?.. Hell, you already spent $500 on an iPad, $50 on Lemur, $300 on Reason, I guess I have a hard time seeing the choke point, nor why anyone should be entitled to a free copy.
Inventing, proofreading work written on, or selling someone a typewriter does not grant you inherent entitlement to that work. It is still theirs. Getting someone to proofread your work several times whilst never making an effort to return the favor is indeed a shit move. However, that’s where the beauty of a community comes in; I find them to be autonomously self-policing in manners such as this.
I guess part of the reason I decided to distribute in the manner that I did was to setup some kind of stop gap measure to protect myself from having my work grabbed up/duplicated and used as a marketing tool with little or no benefit to me. Among other things that template is my baby, it’s my first programming application outside of web languages, and kind of marks a point where I’m able to merge passion (electronic music) with profession (coding). I can damn near guarantee that no one has quit their day job to be a Lemur template developer. Between buying the domain names, making the video, buying screen capture software for the video, and paying to form an LLC I am nowhere near to being in the black. What I do have is an LLC that will allow me to write off my purchase of Traktor and other software on next year’s tax return. Taxes are going to rape me this year and I’d like a way to get some of them back in the future, is that such a sin?
This whole concern about it being bad for the community, I don’t buy into it. Certain personality types can cause problems, sure, but paid templates?.. either buy it or don’t. Rebuild it if you’d like but it’s generally going to be wiser to pay. Ask for hints if you liked something in particular etc... but try not to feel completely entitled to someone else's work. If it is as simple as grabbing bits from the library then you shouldn't have much issue reproducing it, right? Chill.
I thought long and hard about the distribution model for my Serato Template, Traxus Scratch Live. I was considering something like a kick starter, where I would release the template to the public after raising enough to buy Serato's advanced audio interface, whereby I could make a template that supported 4 decks. I thought about landing users on pages and pages of banner ads, as well as a couple of other models, including releasing it for free. I eventually settled on $10 a pop, because that's what I would have paid if the template had not existed. As someone eluded to earlier, I made this template because I wanted and needed it, and nothing on the market fit the bill. I probably spent over 100 hours on it (partially due to overcoming the learning curve). There were 4 other contributors (people who gave advice along the way) involved. While none of them necessarily wrote anything that I used, I decided that if any of them showed interest, I would shoot them a free copy. Being that none of them seemed particularly interested in Serato, I generally opt to return the favor of giving advice in return whenever possible as well as throwing their websites some SEO juice on my blog when appropriate. I upload modules and lesser templates to the library as I see fit, but tend to hold onto the bits that I worked harder on, especially those of which I had to cut my own path to attain.
One of the reasons being, guys like Mat with Sequencomat, lABl, artsUNMUTED, more humbly myself, and anyone putting out templates, paid or unpaid, with advanced scripting, attention to ergonomics, aesthetics, and work flow are making Lemur look good. We are broadening the viability of the product in the eyes of potential consumers, making and editing videos, writing manuals and so forth. I paid a friend $100 to shoot and edit my video, and that was a huge favor on his behalf. Fact of the matter is we are putting hard dollars and man hours that would be expensive we’re you to contract them out into these projects. More importantly, while doing all of this we are subtly hyping the software/hardware being controlled as well as the Lemur platform; a platform that sells for $50 a license.
I’m not complaining about the cost, having learned the capabilities I think it is more than fair as a price point; nor am I insinuating that the developers are millionaires (but props if you are, you should be). I am saying that those of us who bust our balls to make and release really in depth templates are basically sexing up at least two entities that we have next to no stake in. Normally, a relationship like this would entail some type of attribution, or at least incentivization, but fact of the matter is, there is no real way to license an .xml (.jzml = .xml) file so this would be a moot request were it to be made. Mind you, I do have methods of tracking which file was distributed to which user, so the option to pursue someone who illegally redistributes remains open, but that is a side effect of my obfuscating the code more than anything else. The only other alternative is for liine to buy templates from us, and then include them in the default package, but I don’t think any of us are going to nag/expect them to do that. It is somewhat undue entitlement.
I sometimes get the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that the Liine staff holds disdain towards for profit templates. Should that be the case I hope the above paragraphs help to explain why someone could become rather irate about that. On a similar note, I see users who have nothing, or next to nothing contributed to the user library become passive aggressive towards users who release paid templates. That kind of hypocrisy should speak for itself. We have a phenomenal community here. As far as forums go, the pissing matches are few and far between and we are a rather productive bunch which is certainly why I choose to hang around, or bother writing 1000+ words on this subject. I just fear that too many of us are looking at the idea of paid templates from a bottom up approach.
Think of it the other way, what if it became apparent to other developers that making lemur templates was worth the sweat and hassle. Probably a long shot the way things stand now, but imagine if the community got flooded with 50 or so coders on or above the level of our finest. Some of you might cringe at the idea (our little niche might not be so little), but you have to agree, that would work wonders for the Lemur product and by extension the community. $10 for a comprehensive template for Reason?.. Hell, you already spent $500 on an iPad, $50 on Lemur, $300 on Reason, I guess I have a hard time seeing the choke point, nor why anyone should be entitled to a free copy.
Inventing, proofreading work written on, or selling someone a typewriter does not grant you inherent entitlement to that work. It is still theirs. Getting someone to proofread your work several times whilst never making an effort to return the favor is indeed a shit move. However, that’s where the beauty of a community comes in; I find them to be autonomously self-policing in manners such as this.
I guess part of the reason I decided to distribute in the manner that I did was to setup some kind of stop gap measure to protect myself from having my work grabbed up/duplicated and used as a marketing tool with little or no benefit to me. Among other things that template is my baby, it’s my first programming application outside of web languages, and kind of marks a point where I’m able to merge passion (electronic music) with profession (coding). I can damn near guarantee that no one has quit their day job to be a Lemur template developer. Between buying the domain names, making the video, buying screen capture software for the video, and paying to form an LLC I am nowhere near to being in the black. What I do have is an LLC that will allow me to write off my purchase of Traktor and other software on next year’s tax return. Taxes are going to rape me this year and I’d like a way to get some of them back in the future, is that such a sin?
This whole concern about it being bad for the community, I don’t buy into it. Certain personality types can cause problems, sure, but paid templates?.. either buy it or don’t. Rebuild it if you’d like but it’s generally going to be wiser to pay. Ask for hints if you liked something in particular etc... but try not to feel completely entitled to someone else's work. If it is as simple as grabbing bits from the library then you shouldn't have much issue reproducing it, right? Chill.
I agree with Macciza, It is not that difficult to learn. I saw this myself when I started with Lemur, with no background in programming. After a while I could already create my own template with exact that functionality I wanted (bi-directional MIDI control with buttons and sliders arranged to my liking). I also believe we have a very good and vast user library. A huge source of knowledge where the novice can see how things are done. A special solution tailored to my needs was of course not there.
would you really go that far? Then we wouldn't be informed about new releases, or not even know about something that might be worth purchasing.whatisvalis wrote:I've got no issue with commercial templates. Maybe just keep the commercial stuff off the Liine boards? Go advertise on KVR etc.
Hi
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.
Ultimately I am not too fussed about the issue of commercial templates in the greater scheme of things. I guess it can spur on the opensource side as well .
I had been thinking about the issue of copyright for a while prior to this and this discussion and have now made my stuff Creative Commons
I don't have a problem with announcements of Projects on the Forum whether commercial or not but don't like full blown 'add' approaches . . .
I do like the idea of the people commercialising Lemur templates to have some involvement/contribution to the community via the Forum and otherwise .. .
Anyway good luck to you all and let's all just be fair and equitable about it all, as much as possible
Cheers
MM
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.
Ultimately I am not too fussed about the issue of commercial templates in the greater scheme of things. I guess it can spur on the opensource side as well .
I had been thinking about the issue of copyright for a while prior to this and this discussion and have now made my stuff Creative Commons
I don't have a problem with announcements of Projects on the Forum whether commercial or not but don't like full blown 'add' approaches . . .
I do like the idea of the people commercialising Lemur templates to have some involvement/contribution to the community via the Forum and otherwise .. .
Anyway good luck to you all and let's all just be fair and equitable about it all, as much as possible
Cheers
MM
That being the case then you all owe me £10 for LPad.
With the proceeds ill buy live 9 and push......Not holding by breath.
Guess ill just have to wait for the very free live kontrol2
With the proceeds ill buy live 9 and push......Not holding by breath.
Guess ill just have to wait for the very free live kontrol2
Fair and very good statement !Macciza wrote:Hi
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.
Ultimately I am not too fussed about the issue of commercial templates in the greater scheme of things. I guess it can spur on the opensource side as well .
I had been thinking about the issue of copyright for a while prior to this and this discussion and have now made my stuff Creative Commons
I don't have a problem with announcements of Projects on the Forum whether commercial or not but don't like full blown 'add' approaches . . .
I do like the idea of the people commercialising Lemur templates to have some involvement/contribution to the community via the Forum and otherwise .. .
Anyway good luck to you all and let's all just be fair and equitable about it all, as much as possible
Cheers
MM
And thanks for clarifying your relation to Linee and this forum. I wasn't aware about it
I am looking forward to your first commercial template thenwul wrote:That being the case then you all owe me £10 for LPad.
With the proceeds ill buy live 9 and push......Not holding by breath.
Guess ill just have to wait for the very free live kontrol2
I'm just puzzled by what Traxus so has against passive-aggression.
It's because it's gay, right???
Anyway, I think the Modules section of the forum is probably the best avenue for those of us who prefer a bottom-up approach to a trickle-down one for the platform. I think some of us have been around long enough to know which is the more beneficial to the host organism.
Whereas contacting Serato and / or Avid / Steinberg-Yamaha Legal would definitely clear up some of the trademark / copyright / licensing issues these commercial efforts are, by their nature, encroaching upon.
Changed my mind about offering a better company name for unMUTED - and in keeping with his chosen theme of classicist / orchestral . . . ladies and gentlemen I give you . . .
"Soloist"
It's because it's gay, right???
Anyway, I think the Modules section of the forum is probably the best avenue for those of us who prefer a bottom-up approach to a trickle-down one for the platform. I think some of us have been around long enough to know which is the more beneficial to the host organism.
Whereas contacting Serato and / or Avid / Steinberg-Yamaha Legal would definitely clear up some of the trademark / copyright / licensing issues these commercial efforts are, by their nature, encroaching upon.
Changed my mind about offering a better company name for unMUTED - and in keeping with his chosen theme of classicist / orchestral . . . ladies and gentlemen I give you . . .
"Soloist"
That was generally my impression, hence the delicate wording. I tend to agree with you, there is room, if not a need for both avenues.Macciza wrote:Hi
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.
$15 US is a bit steep, I might pay that, $10 and I wouldn't think twice we're I on the market for such functionality. No, don't hold your breath, but do form a small company and write off new gear on your taxes, you've got the talent, you just need the revenue to justify it. (Not sure what the UK setup is but I'm sure there is something akin to a US LLC).wul wrote:That being the case then you all owe me £10 for LPad.
With the proceeds ill buy live 9 and push......Not holding by breath.
Guess ill just have to wait for the very free live kontrol2
When I made the Ableton 4 Channel DJ template, I knew all along that it would be a freebie (even before I realized the monumental suck-age of EQ3 and stumbled upon softcore's solutions via EQ8). Looking at it now, I think about how much I would pay for it, $5 seems a bit steep, $3 is about the point I'd impulse buy it. I got a bit frustrated with the whole filter setup, namely the master filter which will control both, as well as the "1 2 3 4" buttons allow you to select which channel either filter is applied to, since these controls are hidden when the filters are active. So, it was a pain in the butt, but nothing monumental or ground breaking enough to expect money for.
I considered this, you're allowed to sell aftermarket parts for cars and other products, these templates should fall under the same umbrella.Joe Soap wrote:
Whereas contacting Serato and / or Avid / Steinberg-Yamaha Legal would definitely clear up some of the trademark / copyright / licensing issues these commercial efforts are, by their nature, encroaching upon.
Because, as a moderator for several other forums, one of which has 6,500 users, and another nearly 20,000, I know that it is completely unhealthy for the community in the long term. It's *generally* a method of needling someone to draw out a hostile response which will in turn destroy the thread, and if left long enough destroy a forum whence people get tired overwhelmed by the arguments that berate every other thread. It is, in your words, not beneficial for the host organism.Joe Soap wrote:I'm just puzzled by what Traxus so has against passive-aggression.
It's because it's gay, right???
Joe Soap wrote: Changed my mind about offering a better company name for unMUTED - and in keeping with his chosen theme of classicist / orchestral . . . ladies and gentlemen I give you . . .
"Soloist"
Quite . . .
Where do you stand on self-awareness?
Where do you stand on self-awareness?
@Joe Soap
Thanks for the name - it was on my long list - I discarded it because there were no free domains to register. It is not so easy with the names, really.
Now back to Lemur...
Today I got an email from a well known French composer who bought reCHORDER but he thought it was a stand-alone app (despite there is a disclaimer in my store). He was angry at me because he didn't realize it is a Lemur project - he said that he didn't want to go through setup hell and he was not even thinking about buying Lemur. I don't know where he learnt this. I offered him a refund - he hasn't written back yet.
Anyway, the thing is that people have got this idea of Lemur being for geeks etc. And that's why we really need some ready-to-use projects that would change this reputation. The more good content, the more people will want to take the risk.
Despite this unpleasant surprise I somehow felt good that rC can be visually taken as a stand alone app - I really did my best to make it as visually and ergonomically appealing as possible.
Thanks for the name - it was on my long list - I discarded it because there were no free domains to register. It is not so easy with the names, really.
Now back to Lemur...
Today I got an email from a well known French composer who bought reCHORDER but he thought it was a stand-alone app (despite there is a disclaimer in my store). He was angry at me because he didn't realize it is a Lemur project - he said that he didn't want to go through setup hell and he was not even thinking about buying Lemur. I don't know where he learnt this. I offered him a refund - he hasn't written back yet.
Anyway, the thing is that people have got this idea of Lemur being for geeks etc. And that's why we really need some ready-to-use projects that would change this reputation. The more good content, the more people will want to take the risk.
Despite this unpleasant surprise I somehow felt good that rC can be visually taken as a stand alone app - I really did my best to make it as visually and ergonomically appealing as possible.
The "setup hell" is a (hardware) platform issue, I genuinely fail to see where commercial templates can do anything to alleviate the problem.
This argument is disingenuous, at best.
This argument is disingenuous, at best.
to be honest I don't think the payed templates (I am not saying it for you or anyone selling templates, please don't take me wrong) is the best way to "catch" new users to the lemur world and to clear the idea of "you need to be a computer geek to use Lemur", applies the same to Reaktor, Max, PD,Processing, etc, there are learning curves, same way if you study "Music", Graphic Design, etc.
People already pay 50$ for the App, and I would expect some good library of resources, good manual and examples of what you can do with lemur, and of course a good forum where you get some help (I can't help with that too much, because my english is a JOKE) sharing things is my best way to contribute with new users.
What are good examples? difficult to say, every of us have different preferences/tastes. IMHO lemur is not focused for musicians only , there are people using it for video, djing, light works, sound design/interaction (I do use it for that), creating editors for hardware synths, etc. I think lemur is not what "you see", but "what you can do", it's a customizable environment, if you don't like the library content, you can create your stuff, that is the same when buying a synth and you don't like the sound presets, make yours, or Buy from the others. But if you're really interested in create your sounds, songs, lemur, playing the triangle, you need to spend time to learn. If you look only to play with pre-made stuff so buying is a great option.
Peace,
AB
People already pay 50$ for the App, and I would expect some good library of resources, good manual and examples of what you can do with lemur, and of course a good forum where you get some help (I can't help with that too much, because my english is a JOKE) sharing things is my best way to contribute with new users.
What are good examples? difficult to say, every of us have different preferences/tastes. IMHO lemur is not focused for musicians only , there are people using it for video, djing, light works, sound design/interaction (I do use it for that), creating editors for hardware synths, etc. I think lemur is not what "you see", but "what you can do", it's a customizable environment, if you don't like the library content, you can create your stuff, that is the same when buying a synth and you don't like the sound presets, make yours, or Buy from the others. But if you're really interested in create your sounds, songs, lemur, playing the triangle, you need to spend time to learn. If you look only to play with pre-made stuff so buying is a great option.
Peace,
AB
My point is: lots of people are put off Lemur because of the complexity and setup but if they find something that really meet their needs, they may be more willing to take the risk. And that is my point - it can be free or payable content - no difference - the point is: diversity and availability of good content.
Tell me in which aspect this argument is disingenuous (I had to check this work in the dictionary:-).
Tell me in which aspect this argument is disingenuous (I had to check this work in the dictionary:-).
Don't know if you're replying to me, but what I want to say, that is very subjetive, what maybe is good content for you can be a total useless thing for me in lemur world, and viceversa.artsUNMUTED wrote:- the point is: diversity and availability of good content..
cheers,
Firm enough to grab a complication by the horns whilst attempting to exhaust and diffuse it rather than escalating it. That is all. Lay off the one liners and name calling man, that is far more damaging to our acclaimed host organism than the sale of a few templates; a practice that many have argued quite convincingly in favor of under the right circumstances.Joe Soap wrote:Quite . . .
Where do you stand on self-awareness?
That's too bad, you would think that not having it in the iOS store would clue him in but what can you do, refund is probably the best way to go but it is tough as you aren't going to effectively revoke the licence or anything. Part of the challenge to overcome, and concurrently the reason this is not a day job is that we are already a niche market. $500 in an iPad and another $50 into an app, and that is before whatever software you're connecting to.artsUNMUTED wrote: Today I got an email from a well known French composer who bought reCHORDER but he thought it was a stand-alone app (despite there is a disclaimer in my store). He was angry at me because he didn't realize it is a Lemur project - he said that he didn't want to go through setup hell and he was not even thinking about buying Lemur. I don't know where he learnt this. I offered him a refund - he hasn't written back yet.
That seems to be a common battle cry for anyone with a commercial template. The app would benefit from a host of pre-packaged templates catered to specific software (impending Live control 2 is a start). At the same time, simply offering up something one of us users busted our balls and built from scratch to help boost their revenues is hardly fair, which I guess is *sort of* what they do when citing the user-library/community when selling the app but I wouldn't contend that it is parasitic, especially because some of the developers are on hand to help you out if you really need them. I see it as a bit more symbiotic than that, it's just that the board generally has enough momentum that they don't need to step in.artsUNMUTED wrote: Anyway, the thing is that people have got this idea of Lemur being for geeks etc. And that's why we really need some ready-to-use projects that would change this reputation. The more good content, the more people will want to take the risk.
I'm a bit confused as to the definition of setup hell, could be anything from lemur scripting/programming (which the template does alleviate), or the application of the template to the software, which if you're providing a paid template for a specific software, you should include the mapping file if the program has such a thing. That seems like a no brainer if it is software specific.Joe Soap wrote:The "setup hell" is a (hardware) platform issue, I genuinely fail to see where commercial templates can do anything to alleviate the problem.
This argument is disingenuous, at best.
That sort of speaks to my prior idea about pre packaged templates that serve a purpose rather than an example. What we contend is that, paid templates are potentially more inciting for other developers who will be able to further display the reach of the platform, paid or not.lABl wrote:to be honest I don't think the payed templates (I am not saying it for you or anyone selling templates, please don't take me wrong) is the best way to "catch" new users to the lemur world and to clear the idea of "you need to be a computer geek to use Lemur", applies the same to Reaktor, Max, PD,Processing, etc, there are learning curves, same way if you study "Music", Graphic Design, etc.
People already pay 50$ for the App, and I would expect some good library of resources, good manual and examples of what you can do with lemur, and of course a good forum where you get some help (I can't help with that too much, because my english is a JOKE) sharing things is my best way to contribute with new users.