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commercial templates bad for the community?
Started by artsUNMUTED on .
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Well, I guess that clears up the Liine stance on matters.
@ unMUTED:
^ This . . . is informality. One often encounters this on the internet and in daily life.
But on that subject, and in the spirit of community I'll give you some free marketing advice re: the name, and how running it by a "native-speaker" probably wasn't quite over the line - and again, it all boils down to subtlety of language. It's an unwieldy word, slightly pretentious and definitely smacks of a non-native facility with english. Please don't misunderstand me, your english is excellent - my Polish, on the other hand, could use some polish.
Take a leaf out of one of the products you're piggybacking on, Cubase. <- Absolutely brilliant made-up word that fair rolls off the tongue . . . and if I'm not mistaken is probably a hybrid of "cue" and "base". An appropriate name for software intended to be a home of sorts, for multiple "cues".
I'm gonna stop short of suggesting some better names though - pay me or f*uck off!
@ unMUTED:
^ This . . . is informality. One often encounters this on the internet and in daily life.
But on that subject, and in the spirit of community I'll give you some free marketing advice re: the name, and how running it by a "native-speaker" probably wasn't quite over the line - and again, it all boils down to subtlety of language. It's an unwieldy word, slightly pretentious and definitely smacks of a non-native facility with english. Please don't misunderstand me, your english is excellent - my Polish, on the other hand, could use some polish.
Take a leaf out of one of the products you're piggybacking on, Cubase. <- Absolutely brilliant made-up word that fair rolls off the tongue . . . and if I'm not mistaken is probably a hybrid of "cue" and "base". An appropriate name for software intended to be a home of sorts, for multiple "cues".
I'm gonna stop short of suggesting some better names though - pay me or f*uck off!
Must commend you on some nice work on the promo vids and website though. Very slick, for the most part.
Softcore you're the more educated man I never seen in forums, I am 100% agree with many of your comments here and I would have them in consideration if I were a template seller.
I would love to have better english skills what I do to be more participative here,
@wul I know the Liine thoughts about that, it seems the basic principle to create an active community where we sharing/learn from each other.
thx guys for the kinds works btw, it's an honour to me to contribute if that helps new lemur users.
So, if I sell a template you guys will not get angry ? haha
I would love to have better english skills what I do to be more participative here,
@wul I know the Liine thoughts about that, it seems the basic principle to create an active community where we sharing/learn from each other.
thx guys for the kinds works btw, it's an honour to me to contribute if that helps new lemur users.
So, if I sell a template you guys will not get angry ? haha
@wul
My apologies to you too.
@Joe
thanks for clarification and free marketing advice. It is rather too late for rebranding - I'd rather spend my time on making new templates - anyway, good products with a unwieldy name are much better then bad products with a great name.
My apologies to you too.
@Joe
thanks for clarification and free marketing advice. It is rather too late for rebranding - I'd rather spend my time on making new templates - anyway, good products with a unwieldy name are much better then bad products with a great name.
Yeah.
This is true.
I can see you're a man of great vison and foresight.
This is true.
I can see you're a man of great vison and foresight.
There is ...
Freeware
Donationware
Shareware/Cripleware
Payware
All of them have proven to be valuable. None of them is better than the other. No right, no wrong. They do co-exist for several platforms that support templates/sounds/plugins/etc. Bottom line one has always to make her/his purchase decision based on the value she/he will get of it.
And I do believe a separate "Commercial Templates" section in this forum could be beneficial to Liine. Since this could motivate MORE professional "template artists" to provide MORE professional templates. Which would help a lot to maximize value of the original lemur purchase. Don't get me wrong here, but there are tons of free templates I consider, öhm, nice ... but not great though. Pretty much similar to the ones I could provide.
Freeware
Donationware
Shareware/Cripleware
Payware
All of them have proven to be valuable. None of them is better than the other. No right, no wrong. They do co-exist for several platforms that support templates/sounds/plugins/etc. Bottom line one has always to make her/his purchase decision based on the value she/he will get of it.
And I do believe a separate "Commercial Templates" section in this forum could be beneficial to Liine. Since this could motivate MORE professional "template artists" to provide MORE professional templates. Which would help a lot to maximize value of the original lemur purchase. Don't get me wrong here, but there are tons of free templates I consider, öhm, nice ... but not great though. Pretty much similar to the ones I could provide.
No problem! Just as said above, I was not talking about of you. My position is that you (like other template builders) are free to make whaever with their creations (sharing/selling them) and I personally respect that, really not a problem for me.artsUNMUTED wrote:@iABI
Thanks for your response. I am not angry - just surprised by some assumptions:-). And I am totally for proper credits and enumeration for the people who directly or indirectly contributed to commercial projects.
Cheers,
damn, if people even are not happy with FREE templatesyoume3 wrote:There is ...
Freeware
Donationware
Shareware/Cripleware
Payware
All of them have proven to be valuable. None of them is better than the other. No right, no wrong. They do co-exist for several platforms that support templates/sounds/plugins/etc. Bottom line one has always to make her/his purchase decision based on the value she/he will get of it.
And I do believe a separate "Commercial Templates" section in this forum could be beneficial to Liine. Since this could motive MORE professional "template artists" to provide MORE professional templates. Which would help a lot to maximize value of the original lemur purchase. Don't get me wrong here, but there are tons of free templates I consider, öhm, nice ... but not great though. Pretty much similar to the ones I could provide.
just joking, but really the point of lemur is not to create your own and customized templates ?Cheers,
Of course I haven't checked yours, IABI ... until now
better don't do that!youme3 wrote:Of course I haven't checked yours, IABI ... until now
Seriously there are great stuff in the user library, it just depends of what you want, but if you can, customizing your setup is the best, many templates are just examples, or workaround in order to show some functionalities, they might be useful if you are looking for a specific object behavior, functions, learning,etc.
Cheers,
I think there may be more at issue here than at first meets the eye w.r.t. commercial templates - and a section for such on the Liine site or User Lib . . . Safe Harbour, trademark and copyright law.
You spent thousands of hours on your controller and someone slammed you for charging people to buy it?
Ugh. This kind of crap makes me insane.
They should go and learn Lemur then. Have fun with that manual. And I hope you remember your high school math.
Seriously man, don't give this issue another thought.
Ugh. This kind of crap makes me insane.
They should go and learn Lemur then. Have fun with that manual. And I hope you remember your high school math.
Seriously man, don't give this issue another thought.
I dont understand what the big deal is.
I mean... if he wants to sell some templates, hes been spending time making...
And people choose to buy those templates...
Whats the problem?
should people not have the choice to buy templates? should this choice be taken away?
From a musicians point of view, some might just wanna get on with making music. If someone has found a way to help do that, isnt it better to buy, than spend the time getting into coding?
Each to his own I say. And good on liine for not taking any particular stance on this issue.
I mean... if he wants to sell some templates, hes been spending time making...
And people choose to buy those templates...
Whats the problem?
should people not have the choice to buy templates? should this choice be taken away?
From a musicians point of view, some might just wanna get on with making music. If someone has found a way to help do that, isnt it better to buy, than spend the time getting into coding?
Each to his own I say. And good on liine for not taking any particular stance on this issue.
This is a discussion that had to happen at some point, and I'm glad it finally has.
I have to admit that when I first saw a commercial template, I was a little surprised. But because it takes a LOT of time to make complex templates (and accompanying documentation, videos, support, etc.), I think it's completely understandable for people to try to make a little income from it. If that helps the developer get some time to continue improving the template or if it helps them to buy a new iPad (I'm guessing the market isn't that big, but wouldn't it be nice??), an iConnectMIDI, or some other accessory so that he/she can make sure their templates work for a variety of setups, great. That benefits a lot of people.
I think another question might be what kind of expectations someone who paid for a template might have.
I have to admit that when I first saw a commercial template, I was a little surprised. But because it takes a LOT of time to make complex templates (and accompanying documentation, videos, support, etc.), I think it's completely understandable for people to try to make a little income from it. If that helps the developer get some time to continue improving the template or if it helps them to buy a new iPad (I'm guessing the market isn't that big, but wouldn't it be nice??), an iConnectMIDI, or some other accessory so that he/she can make sure their templates work for a variety of setups, great. That benefits a lot of people.
I think another question might be what kind of expectations someone who paid for a template might have.
even more, they don't allow any kind of copy protection for templates. A very wise attitude in my opinion.newtfish wrote:And good on liine for not taking any particular stance on this issue.
Which does not mean I don't support commercial templates. On the contrary. I just find it good that the Lemur platform doesn't actively support commercial releases. It's up to the developer to provide unique content, so that the buyer doesn't have to spend countless hours or work time. This is fair in my opinion.
Those who don't share this opinion are free to create their own templates with that value and complexity. Lemur is open to any ideas, there are no barriers.
This is equally a heads-up for newcomers and aspirants, as well as a confirmation for providers of commercial templates to continue their work and feel good at doing it. You are free and can do what you want.Hi All
I do think that the 'commercialisation' of Projects can potentially be bad for the community. Potentially breeding distrust and possibly stifling contributions . . .
I am aware of a few cases involving MFL Devices being sold that directly ripped-off/monetised free content from other developers . . . Not too nicely either...
In one case of MFL stuff, the developer swore blind he never used anyone else's code and yet it was very obvious that they had, hmmm, not nice . . .
So do we blindly accept peoples claims? If we purchase something that is in fact ripped-off from someone else work, what do we do??
How do we know if we have been 'ripped off' without getting 'ripped-off' again paying for our own work?
How do we know that 'commercial' developers are not using 'free' solutions provided here for other people?
If someone wanted to build a Mackie emulation would they really build it ground-up themselves? Or would they use resources from here?
I am glad that Liine have not pursued 'Pay-to-play' Premium Content or InApp Module purchasing like so many other Apps do these days . . .
I certainly support those who provide contributions to the community - in terms of discussion, projects, modules and code .. .
So is a 'commercial project' a 'contribution' to the community? Or is it the community contributing to commercialiser?
A free lite-version is a contribution, as is active Forum involvement - and it allows one to see the quality of work of the developer . .
If they don't contribute in any way then how am I supposed to make any judgement on them or their work
If they don't make any use of any of our community resources, are they going to come up with quality solutions? How do they know?
If I buy someones commercial project and like a bunch of it's functionality and/or code, what then ? Should I not use it; even if it is generic code anyway?
So if I post Projects, Modules or Code here - how do I know that someone else is not going to capitalise on my work?
And if they do create monetised product from my stuff what are my chances of stopping them or getting anything in return?
My immediate reaction in this regard is to add some copyright to all my stuff - not that it really provides any protection to theft . . .
The other option, as mentioned by others, is that I post less stuff or post only basic stuff and protect the 'good stuff' . . .
Or do I follow the same path and start charging for my stuff and contribute less ? And add to the very problem I wish to avoid . . .
I have a number of (what I consider to be) unique and interesting ideas that I may need to rethink in light of all this 'commercial' discussion . . .
The whole thing certainly has the potential to be quite a 'can of worms' with no single simple solution . . .
I do think that the 'commercialisation' of Projects can potentially be bad for the community. Potentially breeding distrust and possibly stifling contributions . . .
I am aware of a few cases involving MFL Devices being sold that directly ripped-off/monetised free content from other developers . . . Not too nicely either...
In one case of MFL stuff, the developer swore blind he never used anyone else's code and yet it was very obvious that they had, hmmm, not nice . . .
So do we blindly accept peoples claims? If we purchase something that is in fact ripped-off from someone else work, what do we do??
How do we know if we have been 'ripped off' without getting 'ripped-off' again paying for our own work?
How do we know that 'commercial' developers are not using 'free' solutions provided here for other people?
If someone wanted to build a Mackie emulation would they really build it ground-up themselves? Or would they use resources from here?
I am glad that Liine have not pursued 'Pay-to-play' Premium Content or InApp Module purchasing like so many other Apps do these days . . .
I certainly support those who provide contributions to the community - in terms of discussion, projects, modules and code .. .
So is a 'commercial project' a 'contribution' to the community? Or is it the community contributing to commercialiser?
A free lite-version is a contribution, as is active Forum involvement - and it allows one to see the quality of work of the developer . .
If they don't contribute in any way then how am I supposed to make any judgement on them or their work
If they don't make any use of any of our community resources, are they going to come up with quality solutions? How do they know?
If I buy someones commercial project and like a bunch of it's functionality and/or code, what then ? Should I not use it; even if it is generic code anyway?
So if I post Projects, Modules or Code here - how do I know that someone else is not going to capitalise on my work?
And if they do create monetised product from my stuff what are my chances of stopping them or getting anything in return?
My immediate reaction in this regard is to add some copyright to all my stuff - not that it really provides any protection to theft . . .
The other option, as mentioned by others, is that I post less stuff or post only basic stuff and protect the 'good stuff' . . .
Or do I follow the same path and start charging for my stuff and contribute less ? And add to the very problem I wish to avoid . . .
I have a number of (what I consider to be) unique and interesting ideas that I may need to rethink in light of all this 'commercial' discussion . . .
The whole thing certainly has the potential to be quite a 'can of worms' with no single simple solution . . .
I can't speak for others but if we upload content to the user library you/we simply shouldn't to complain if that work is used later on free or no free projects (difficult to say , I going not to pay to know that) , we shared kindly a thing, and other users can use it and learn from it, and that is at least my point sharing lemur or any prog stuff, otherwise what's the point to upload anything?
You can always of course to upload and "protect" your work with CC licenses, but that does work? There is nothing in the user library protecting your uploads.
I agree with Liine and other companies, but I also think we can't expect tons of users working and releasing maybe a two months work for free, I mean, >>>>>> what get the user in return for a two months work <<<<<<<< ? I can undestand some folks don't like that idea.
just my 2 cents.
You can always of course to upload and "protect" your work with CC licenses, but that does work? There is nothing in the user library protecting your uploads.
I agree with Liine and other companies, but I also think we can't expect tons of users working and releasing maybe a two months work for free, I mean, >>>>>> what get the user in return for a two months work <<<<<<<< ? I can undestand some folks don't like that idea.
just my 2 cents.
hm, good thoughts. I must admit I was a bit naive and made it a bit too simple. In fact it is rather complicated. I didn't know about the M4L stuff being stolen and sold for money. It's only since about a year I know Lemur, others know it since many more years before the Liine/iPad era, when it was a hardware unit.
Apparently we are talking about ethics. I think the few providers of commercial Lemur templates acted reasonably so far. I didn't buy any of those templates, but as far as I can see they provide unique content without stealing from others. I hope this is and remains true. But as it appears to have happened in the Max/MSP scene (I don't know, it's what Macciza said), there is indeed a danger it could happen in the Lemur scene as well.
Still, I believe that if such a case should happen, it would be obvious for the community. I believe in the integrity of all providers of commercial content to be honest and not abuse the help they get from the forum. If not, they can be named and 'denounced' so that their business won't be working. This is probably still very naive thinking, but somehow I am convinced it is and will be the case.
Apparently we are talking about ethics. I think the few providers of commercial Lemur templates acted reasonably so far. I didn't buy any of those templates, but as far as I can see they provide unique content without stealing from others. I hope this is and remains true. But as it appears to have happened in the Max/MSP scene (I don't know, it's what Macciza said), there is indeed a danger it could happen in the Lemur scene as well.
Still, I believe that if such a case should happen, it would be obvious for the community. I believe in the integrity of all providers of commercial content to be honest and not abuse the help they get from the forum. If not, they can be named and 'denounced' so that their business won't be working. This is probably still very naive thinking, but somehow I am convinced it is and will be the case.
The thing is that Lemur has got the reputation as a software for programmers, computer geeks etc. which puts off potential users. If there were more off-the-shelf good solutions, it would be much more popular. Liine also tried to simplify things a bit with Lemur 4. Anyway, most musicians/composers are not programmers or/and they don't have time to make advanced templates. Some of them are willing to pay a lot for custom templates. Some would love to spend some money for templates that would help them make great music. Why do we expect all Lemur users to get into programming and customization? Premium payable content can also draw new users and contribute to Lemur popularity - I have tens of people who bought Lemur because of qb for example. Also yesterday I got several emails from people who saw this thread and told me not to be put off by the general attitude on this forum. So there are many Lemur users who don't mind paying for good content.
I pay a lot for Kontakt libraries, plugins, interesting sound banks - I have spent big $$$ on them - could I do a sample library for Kontakt - probably yes, write a plug - probably yes, create an interesting sound bank for my Virus TI - definitely yes. But there is no need to - there are tons of amazing content to choose from. And I can use them instantly to create great music. Because it is the music that is the final aim, right?
The problem with Lemur is that there are just a few pro-level projects that can be used off-the-shelf - I started dabbling with it because there was nothing I could use for my needs. And I was not alone in my needs because they are people who buy my templates - and most of them are not the standard Lemur target (i.e. Ableton, DJ and live performance). I paid $$$$$ for my Euphonix MC Pro controller and now we can have similar functionality in qbedit. I fell in love with Studio One and there was/is NO serious controller for it - so I made x1 - and integrated it with S1 as no other product before or after. And I am supporting it with updates - all qb users got free update to qbedit and qbmix. x1 users got free updates - another update is on the way with the support for most Softube plugins - free. Guys, I don't have to convince you how much time you spend on writing a comprehensive module just for a plug with full scales etc. and integrate it with S1. x1 supports tens of plugins - including 5 very complex Fabfilter plugins - all available parameters - it was given free. A user buys for example my template for ProjectSAM Symphobia and off-the-shelf gets the support for all instruments in this massive library with all articulations, naming, instrument ranges plus additional content for Cubendo like all articulation maps, track archives, controller files - show me one free template with that such complex coverage. We are talking about very serious commitment here.
And just imagine how a guy like me feels when he "advertises" his products here and gets bashed because it is a payable content - you don't contribute to the community, you should not advertise here, the community will die because of payable content etc. etc. Make a mediocre template and publish it free and you get praises on this forum. Make something unique and awfully time consuming - blaah, it is not free - the community doesn't want you here.
I don't expect appreciation - like "thanks for good work". I get it from my users all the time. But don't you think there is something wrong here? I am glad we started this discussion - just to give another perspective. And it would be great if Liine took it into consideration as well.
I pay a lot for Kontakt libraries, plugins, interesting sound banks - I have spent big $$$ on them - could I do a sample library for Kontakt - probably yes, write a plug - probably yes, create an interesting sound bank for my Virus TI - definitely yes. But there is no need to - there are tons of amazing content to choose from. And I can use them instantly to create great music. Because it is the music that is the final aim, right?
The problem with Lemur is that there are just a few pro-level projects that can be used off-the-shelf - I started dabbling with it because there was nothing I could use for my needs. And I was not alone in my needs because they are people who buy my templates - and most of them are not the standard Lemur target (i.e. Ableton, DJ and live performance). I paid $$$$$ for my Euphonix MC Pro controller and now we can have similar functionality in qbedit. I fell in love with Studio One and there was/is NO serious controller for it - so I made x1 - and integrated it with S1 as no other product before or after. And I am supporting it with updates - all qb users got free update to qbedit and qbmix. x1 users got free updates - another update is on the way with the support for most Softube plugins - free. Guys, I don't have to convince you how much time you spend on writing a comprehensive module just for a plug with full scales etc. and integrate it with S1. x1 supports tens of plugins - including 5 very complex Fabfilter plugins - all available parameters - it was given free. A user buys for example my template for ProjectSAM Symphobia and off-the-shelf gets the support for all instruments in this massive library with all articulations, naming, instrument ranges plus additional content for Cubendo like all articulation maps, track archives, controller files - show me one free template with that such complex coverage. We are talking about very serious commitment here.
And just imagine how a guy like me feels when he "advertises" his products here and gets bashed because it is a payable content - you don't contribute to the community, you should not advertise here, the community will die because of payable content etc. etc. Make a mediocre template and publish it free and you get praises on this forum. Make something unique and awfully time consuming - blaah, it is not free - the community doesn't want you here.
I don't expect appreciation - like "thanks for good work". I get it from my users all the time. But don't you think there is something wrong here? I am glad we started this discussion - just to give another perspective. And it would be great if Liine took it into consideration as well.
Thanks for the different perspective - it sure helps me understand why people with surely more knowledge than me in lemur are so reluctant to help others in here...or post their modules or whatnot.
I might aswell get used to it and act accordingly!
I might aswell get used to it and act accordingly!