MIDI Kinetics Forum

Hi!
In my search for a truly professional level, configurable MIDI/OSC controller app for the Ipad, I've been finding the field somewhat lacking, to say the least. Lemur appears to be the most capable of the breed and I've been mulling through the manual. So far I'm encouraged, but it also raises questions. On that note.....

1. 14 bit standard MIDI controls. I see that the capability is there to send a 14 bit pitch bend message from a control, but I do not see any facility for configuring other 14 bit continuous controllers. Can I send an MSB/LSB pair like 7/39 for fine level control?

2. System exclusive. Does this support checksums? MSB/LSB variables?

3. To emulate standard DAW control surface hardware with touch sensitive faders, can a momentary switch overlay a fader control so that the following is possible?:
A. Touch the fader->Send fixed message: note on 67 ch 3 vel 127
B. Move the fader->Send cc messages
C. Release the fader->Send fixed message: note on 67 ch 3 vel 0

4. Can a control be created that bangs another control to make it send its current value?
5. Can a control be created that can change the cc message number of another control, or likewise change the note number by a specified value, eg transpose?

6. Can the taper of a control be modified/transformed, ie log, semilog?

7. Is there a radio button, exclusive/or, parameter for multiple controls?

8. What about bank change messages?

That's enough for now, I think....

Thanks for your time!

just trying to answer your questions, I'm still a bit new to Lemur. Other user may correct me where I'm wrong.

1. NRPN MIDI is possible, but as far as I know not fully implemented. You need to 'build' your encoder or fader first, but then it should work. Search the forum for several threads dealing with the topic. But you can also use pitchbend with different MIDI channels if 16 14-bit controls are enough. The Mackie Control uses pitchbend for the faders.

2. there are also some discussions here about sysex. I don't have my Oberheim Matrix 6 anymore, so it doesn't concern me.

3. you can use the fader itself. Two scripts, one is triggered by 'On Expression', x, 0 to positive (touch). The other by 'On Expression', x, positive to 0 (release). And two custom MIDI commands containing what you want to communicate, and executed by the respective script. When you move the fader, no script is triggered, and the fader.x value is transmitted.

4. yes

5. yes. You can download the editor for free and load Antonio Blanca's brilliant Kontrolab 2 interface. Press the e button on your keyboard to get into 'play'-mode. 8 controls with freely assignable CC number and MIDI channel. And selectable port.

6. I'm sure it's possible. At the moment I'm interested in this myself. For logarithmic faders, but also for level meters.

7. I did not quite understand what you mean. The pad object has radio buttons.

8. all kinds of MIDI messages can be generated. But what I have heard from others, and also found out myself, is that it always depends on the available documentation. Especially with sysex messages, if a genuine and complete list cannot be found or created. I was trying to emulate a full Mackie Control for Cubase. Faders, vpots, and channel display work fine, but I couldn't find the commands for Scrub/Shuttle, timecode, routing, and level meter. With Reason, timecode is received by Lemur. So I decided to buy V-Control, an iPad app, that I can run on my second iPad, and use Lemur for the real interesting controlling. One day I may have all Mackie Control commands for Cubase and Lemur.

Thanks phil!

Phil999 wrote:1. NRPN MIDI is possible, but as far as I know not fully implemented. You need to 'build' your encoder or fader first, but then it should work. Search the forum for several threads dealing with the topic.

NRPN is a little different, and I was going to ask about it but didn't want my post to be too long. But generally speaking, I'm interested in whether Lemur not only supports these various types of messages but also if it provides a reasonably non-convoluted way of setting them up! Couldn't locate any threads on this but I'll keep looking.

As for regular ol' 14 bit, when using controller assignments in Logic Pro, the only way to dial in a plug-in parameter that has more than 128 positions is to send Logic a 14 bit controller. It then has a multiplier parameter that lets you scale the 16,384 steps down to say 500, if that's what's needed for that parameter control. Ideally I would like the controller (Lemur) to scale and set low and high limits for a 14 bit control. That way I could make unique modulation source controls for virtual instruments as well as some of my hardware synths.

3. you can use the fader itself. Two scripts, one is triggered by 'On Expression', x, 0 to positive (touch). The other by 'On Expression', x, positive to 0 (release). And two custom MIDI commands containing what you want to communicate, and executed by the respective script. When you move the fader, no script is triggered, and the fader.x value is transmitted.

Good to know, thanks.

4. yes

Cool.

5. yes. You can download the editor for free and load Antonio Blanca's brilliant Kontrolab 2 interface. Press the e button on your keyboard to get into 'play'-mode. 8 controls with freely assignable CC number and MIDI channel. And selectable port.

I'll check it out.

7. I did not quite understand what you mean. The pad object has radio buttons.

Yeah, I'm not so much interested in an array as I am being able to tell any switch to disable/change state based on a change of state in any other switch.

8. all kinds of MIDI messages can be generated. But what I have heard from others, and also found out myself, is that it always depends on the available documentation.

Yup, although I wouldn't be trying to create any editors that I haven't already created using other methods, sysex or otherwise.

I was trying to emulate a full Mackie Control for Cubase. Faders, vpots, and channel display work fine, but I couldn't find the commands for Scrub/Shuttle, timecode, routing, and level meter.

Ah! Well, I can tell you this much. A note-on #101, ch1, vel=127 followed by the same but vel=0, is the message string that toggles shuttle/scrub either on or off, depending on its state. To increment either, send cc60, ch1, val=1. To decrement, send the same but with a val=65. The other stuff you mentioned I haven't explored.

Thanks again!

thanks for the info, I'll try that out. Touchscreens are good for scrub and shuttle actions, and it looks like this option hasn't been explored much by Lemur users, legacy or iPad. To scrub/shuttle Cubase with V-Control is impressive. Almost like moving two tape reels or a vinyl. That should be no problem for Lemur.

14-MIDI and NRPN are not exactly the same? For me these terms were always synonymous. Here are some threads to the topic:

http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ysex#p4092
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ysex#p4024
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ilit=sysex
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ysex#p3589
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ilit=sysex
etc.

http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3852
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3826
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3815
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3726
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3334
http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... hilit=nrpn

And in case you are working with Logic, there's OSC. From what I can tell, much more easy and powerful. Cubase and Mackie need MIDI, and you also mentioned hardware synthesisers, this can be difficult in some cases.

http://liine.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... nrpn#p3826

Thanks, that one was relevant.

Phil999 wrote:14-MIDI and NRPN are not exactly the same? For me these terms were always synonymous.

No, not synonymous. But NRPNs (and RPNs for that matter) can be 14 bit, just like regular cc's but typically aren't. NRPNs are unique in that parameter numbers are received first and always get specified by cc 98 and 99, (a 14 bit pair, but not for control, for parameter selection). That parameter number becomes the active one for that MIDI channel. This overcomes the limit of having only 128 parameter numbers. Now you can virtually have as many as you want.

So once you've established the active parameter with your cc 98 and 99 pair, you can then send a regular 7 bit cc 6 (Data Entry MSB) to actually change the parameter value. Some devices also can recognize the cc 38 (Data Entry LSB) to either improve on the resolution, or as a separate "fine" control.

Unlike NRPN's, regular cc's don't need the preceding MSB,LSB parameter selector. All regular cc's from 0 thru 31 can be 14 bit without preceding it with anything special, but you have to send the message pair together like this: Shows the MSB 7, LSB 39 pair. This simply changes a regular cc7 with only 128 steps of resolution into a control with 16,384 steps. Note the LSB message number is always 32 higher than the MSB. Most decent DAWs accept this high resolution message format. Pitchbend is the 0,32 manifestation of this.

And in case you are working with Logic, there's OSC. From what I can tell, much more easy and powerful.

At this time, Logic Pro 9 only supports OSC with specific control surfaces. Hopefully that will change soon.

Hi
Basically yes to all your questions with some caveats.
Some of these things you may need to code up yourself in 'C style' scripting. Or find someone who has.
There are some size limitations which are gradually being raised and some that can be coded around.

Specifically
1.Yes. currently through scripting but requested as a selectable option and I imagine that will happen.
You can program via menu's or via scripting for full control of MIDI output.

2. Sysex - Yes . Roll your own cheksum to match your devices system. Program any midi you want via scripting

3 Faders have a 'z' variable -0/1 for detecting Fader touch

4 Yes Scripting

5 Yes Scripting

6 Yes Scripting - log(), log10(), exp() and various other standard maths functions are available, and interactive taper controls are available via peoples projects.

7 The Pad array or do it via scripting for even more complex things then just basic radio mode

8. Bank change messages are just 2 CC's - Scripted for now but requested for menu selectable.

Regarding 'truly professional' - Look at the list of artists who have used the Lemur. This does pretty much all that and a few things it can't.
Currently you can have patch that simply would not have been possible at all on the Legacy unit so I guess it's professional.

Compared to some other apps that are half the price, that I have not decided to get yet, I quite easily paid the price given the pedigree of the app and have not been disappointed. I definitely recommend getting it . . .

Cheers
MM

Thanks guys, you've convinced me! I'll have to get my head around the scripting apparently. That's OK. Can't be worse than Kyma or Kontakt scripting, eh?

Macciza wrote:3 Faders have a 'z' variable -0/1 for detecting Fader touch

Nice. Out of curiousity, is this available as an analog control as well? I know that some apps detect the width of your finger pad.

Macciza wrote: 3 Faders have a 'z' variable -0/1 for detecting Fader touch

of course. I was wondering about that z variable. One should always keep that manual open.

But no 'pressure' control, as far as I know. Only with the legacy 'gesture' object maybe?

Thank you fader8 for the 14-bit/NRPN information. I'll keep that for reference.

Hi
I InstaPrinted a copy and got it bound fairly cheaply and often do keyword searches via the pdf
Sometimes there is that 'one line' that adds so much knowledge that you can miss so easily . . .
Also on OSX I can do pretty good 'content' searches of the project folder as well . . .
'Pressure' style - it's really 'blob area' - variables are being investigated I think, it is possible but we'll have to wait and see. .
For your further reference http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php and http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

Cheers
MM