MIDI Kinetics Forum

Hey Guys,

just some thoughts about it, as I read it in an internet cafe in Thailand, where I stay for holiday in march...
I had this discussion - also with a bit aggression - in Jazzmutant times and I see it a bit relaxed but also bored

In short:
- nobody will make enough money to live from that by Lemur templates or maxpatches. I am personally get lucky if I sell 1 full license sequencomat per month....
- From some point of complexity, tools can not be developed in sparetime. Sequencomat is very complex, and it took me over 8 month full time (!) to develop it to that point. So I sure ask for money for the full license.
- smaller projects - whch are sometimes equal helpfull, but developed in 3 days - are great....I shared a lot.
- support and documentation takes a lot of time. It is spare on some free templates and I understand that - they developed just for theirself and where fair enough to share...whz now also sit down and take days for documentation? Here an important reason on commercial way comes in.
- I prefer higher prices not only cause I think my tool is worth it, but also to get rid of a kind of users that think 10 Euro is much money and ask why that patch can not cook coffee.... sorry, know this sounds harsh, but some users have strange ideas... now I got only professionals and they know the borders of a tool (and actually, as I heard during the last update - they all think it was worth the money)
- I would prefer if Liine push a bit more effort in documentation, examples and tutorials.... as JM did in the beginning. Because it is true: there is still a kind of border for musicans to get into programming a module - if it is more than just adding a fader.

As said, just some spontainious thoughts from the beach.
I hope community will understand and dont take it personally

all the best and hear from you in april
mat

Joe Soap wrote:And I'll lay off the one-liners when you drop the amateur psychology. Fair?

I mean, *teeeeechnically* that could be called a one-liner; but sure.

Phil999 wrote:we the community reap what we sow. I don't think Liine has any obligation to say something to this matter.

Besides, the Jazzmutant community appears to be quite different . . .

Like I said, it is probably very wise of them to stay out of this debate, as either way we are making their product more viable.

Did liine buy lemur from jazzmutant, or what is the story behind that? I've been trying to figure out what happened there.

mat wrote: - nobody will make enough money to live from that by Lemur templates or maxpatches. I am personally get lucky if I sell 1 full license sequencomat per month....
- From some point of complexity, tools can not be developed in sparetime. Sequencomat is very complex, and it took me over 8 month full time (!) to develop it to that point. So I sure ask for money for the full license.
- smaller projects - whch are sometimes equal helpfull, but developed in 3 days - are great....I shared a lot.
- support and documentation takes a lot of time. It is spare on some free templates and I understand that - they developed just for theirself and where fair enough to share...whz now also sit down and take days for documentation? Here an important reason on commercial way comes in.
- I prefer higher prices not only cause I think my tool is worth it, but also to get rid of a kind of users that think 10 Euro is much money and ask why that patch can not cook coffee.... sorry, know this sounds harsh, but some users have strange ideas... now I got only professionals and they know the borders of a tool (and actually, as I heard during the last update - they all think it was worth the money)
- I would prefer if Liine push a bit more effort in documentation, examples and tutorials.... as JM did in the beginning. Because it is true: there is still a kind of border for musicans to get into programming a module - if it is more than just adding a fader.

Interesting thoughts. Especially on your price point. I do find myself playing a lot of tech support at my $10 price point but I spent about a month and a half on it, not 8. For me it just came to a point where, if I opt to stay home from a bar to work on something, it is time to get some compensation (like you said, spare time).

I have no problem when someone charges some money for a complex map. As i see it the artsunmuted stuff looks very thought out and pretty complex. If i would use Cubase or S1 i would have probably bought some of them.
Sure it is nice to have stuff for free but i don't expect people to hand out everything for free especially when alot of work has been put into it.
I have bought Sequencomat and had no problems with it as you can clearly see it is well done. You could even test the free version beforehand.
So if it is not a rip off i am totally fine with charging money for templates.

artsUNMUTED wrote: Now back to Lemur...
Today I got an email from a well known French composer who bought reCHORDER. He was angry at me because...

Or perhaps he was angry at you because you are a copycat that shamelessly copied Avantagarde Audio''s featured concept called ChordBank to save chord presets from their template named enChord which is the FIRST chord design tool for Lemur

enchord video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-jZjvJOpdo (see video release date)
enchord website http://www.avantgardesound.com/

It's a annoying because I am an enChord user, and what you did has a lot to do precisely with what Macciza and others were pointing out. Copying someone else's work does NOT contribute to the community despite your hypocritical claims. Not only copying, you are selling and making profits from others' ideas. Even though you just shamelessly copied the concept, it is very clear enChord's additional concepts and overall workflow are far superior to your copycat attempt... sorry, but I tell it like it is.

Regarding the topic in question, I am all for quality commercial templates, but come on!, at least sell your own ideas and creativity, not those of others!

Macciza wrote: It seems odd that straight after a commercial chord project is released another similar commercial one gets released - how long before the next one I wonder

This is what 'stealing' is, taking others work ands representing it as your own and charging for it. Opensource generally views this as 'bad' and if it has been 'copylefted' then it is even more wrong.
This is where it potentially becomes 'bad for the community' if it is left unquestioned/ unchecked - it makes people think twice about posting stuff for fear it will be ripped off and capitalised upon

Exactly right.

lABl wrote: Sorry, but I am have not anything against of people selling templates (as i said before and several times), I found a bit "disrecpecting " some actitudes

@Antonio Blanca: No, your understanding is correct. Arts Muted called our user library as full of "mediocrity" in this same thread.
At least most of the library content is mostly original. Further, the user library contains templates created by you AB, and your templates ARE original and helpful. Nothing mediocre about them. Far from that! On the other hand, copying others' concepts IS what's mediocre and lame to say the least.

Just so you know, I would have paid for many of the templates you posted for free, because they are useful and innovative in several ways. Hope you create more. We at the studio bought Sequencomat, and I also personally bought enChord. Great and truly innovative stuff!

Are you labouring under the misapprehension that Avantagarde Audio (sic) invented chord presets or something?

Don't be fooled by the assclownery in the hilarious marketing spam.

Joe Soap wrote:Are you labouring under the misapprehension that Avantagarde Audio (sic) invented chord presets or something?
Don't be fooled by the assclownery in the hilarious marketing spam.

I am experienced enough and have a good understanding of the market and tools available after decades of dedication to this business to clearly see how AvantGarde Sound (or "Audio", first name I think) approach to their chord design app is innovative vs to what was done BEFORE their enChord product. The creative concepts behind enChord are FAR beyond just chord presets as you are trying to oversimplify. I have studied the app deeply. On the other hand, Muted Arts shamelessly copied the enchord's chordbank (chord memories) concept/workflow, and many of the workflow procedures. Still, it's not even a good copy as enChord is way faster and has way more features as far as I can see, and trust me my friend, I do can see far.

However, as I said, it just bothers me that this guy comes here talking about "contributing" and also complains, yet he said in his video that *he* "came up with the idea" to save the chord presets... ala enChord's chordbank. Also very stupidly, he said that it took him *two* months to "create" his copycat, but he actually published it THREE months or more after enChord was released to the public. On top of that, he also put down the user community library, which contains many of AB's and Mat's designs, and called it "mediocre"... really?

I mean, unMuted ars wants to make his case, but shamelessly copying and disrespecting others' hard work in the user library won't take him far at least with me.

About "assclownery"... call it as you wish, but the fact is that there was nothing like enChord before its release. There still isn't. I am a very satisfied enchord user. Now I compose better and have a better understanding and retention levels of scales, chords and their relationships, let alone the chord and scale analysis features, which the copycats will have to spend a long time on. I too hope AB starts charging for his templates. He deserves at least a symbolic income for his work, just as Mat. I doubt they will get rich or even make a living, but their contributions are very valuable. Fact of the matter is the whole Lemur thing would be way less if it wasn't for their work. Liine and JazzMutant on the other hand HAVE capitalized from their work as well as others' in several ways, and AB has seen nothing other than mere props from his hard work.

Liine definitely must take care of the advanced users that are making the Lemur a better platform and overall product. It's in their interest do so. If they are disabled from seeing the advantages of power users creating powerful/professional templates, I guarantee this Liine incarnation of the Lemur project will fail due to lack of commercial strategy and vision, just like JazzMutant did. Bottom line is we do not live in a world of sharing and love, and this does not put food on anyone's table. What Muted Ars did is nothing vs what the BIG corporate asl's will do just copying and grabbing concepts developed by Lemur users.

Making Lemur a highly monetized environment is KEY for its success, particularly in the long run. Commercially speaking, all the work dedicated to in-app editing will not pay off as they expected, guaranteed. Monetizing the platform, investing in it, taking care of the actual creative individuals here, ie. making it commercially viable is what will make Lemur into a massive success. How many Lemur users are out there? 2000? We should be 200,000 by now, which signifies nearly 10 million dollars just from direct users.

Apple takes 30% from Lemur sales though, bottom line is that people deserve money for their work. The last time I checked, Lemur was not and still is not a communist subsystem within the wild capitalism system that Apple clearly exercises.

It's just plain retarded to expect people to just give away their hard work; but it's also pathetic to shamelessly copy others' work and yet call us "mediocre" as Unmuted ars did.

I hope you realise of course that matters like this put Liine in the unpleasant position of a "referee" (who stole whose idea,at whatpointit was stealing and at what point its anoriginal idea) and other implications. These are only some of the reasons I found the whole "commercial idea" weird in the first place!!!!

Also, I dont agree that it is retarded to give away your hard work.....it makes you feel a sucker though when others dont and you do.....if thats what you are saying I agree......AB and others who gave for free must feel very retarded now that everyone puts a price tag on templates - 3 or 5 euros i read somewhere, but somehow this is not retarded....giving away is....

Anyways.....I do agree however that a few, very few creators of templates do deserve some monetisation because innovative ideas in their templates cannot be questioned....but the conversation here reached to an ugly point of comparing templates, trying to find who's the King and what not.....

Pfffff.........

By the way, in the same fashion I could say it is retarded to sell Lemur templates - that doesnt mean I expect or demand them to be given away for free.....if you dont feel like sharing it, nobody is forcing you to....

Just as it is upsetting to read that "selling templates is retarded" for some, it may be equally upsetting to others stating that it is retarded to share in a community with a common interest....

This of course wouldnt be beneficial for Lemur and the users.....but Im just mentioning it because the logic
" disagree with selling templates = demand stuff for free" is faulty!!! I, for one, do not demand or expect anything!!!

But before buying Lemur, a critical factor was the fact that it had a user library with free templates to use and learn from and a forum to ask and learn....had it been all about paying for in-app addons or whatnot, I might have looked elsewhere....Would I find what is possible with Lemur? Perhaps not - but I wouldnt know it,would I?

Copying good ideas is how we evolve better tools.

That's why I'm in allignment with Softcore on the commercial issue - this sort of asshattery.

Just to let y'all know, I'll be copying the shi*t out of anything and everything in sight if it makes sense to. Hopefully, I can make some incremental improvements, or some novel synthesis.

With any luck the enChord guy will copy the aM guy - they get into a pricewar . . . at some point they're paying us to DL their stuff. Win win!

Or we'll all be reduced to releasing Youtube vids of the cool **** we can't release instead of filling up the Lib.

Hush . . . whisper it . . . an underground Lemur scene.