MIDI Kinetics Forum

m127 wrote: Liine definitely must take care of the advanced users that are making the Lemur a better platform and overall product. It's in their interest do so. If they are disabled from seeing the advantages of power users creating powerful/professional templates, I guarantee this Liine incarnation of the Lemur project will fail due to lack of commercial strategy and vision, just like JazzMutant did.

We (I) went over all these points a week ago...

Traxus wrote:Tell you what, if Lemur was a free app, I would be a bit more hesitant to charge or pay for anything built. I mean, it would have to be through the roof either way (I would have paid $10 to $15 for Live Control on Touch OSC). However it is, as apps stand, on the higher end of prices, and liine uses this community and it's library as a selling point. I'm not going to work my ass off to build something that helps them get paid while I, at best, get a bit of SEO to my site. I will pay my dues to the community, but I'm not laying over the barbed wire just to be recognized as a hero. This isn't bitterness towards Liine either, as far as I can tell they remain neutral on the whole subject and sensibly so. Free stuff is great for their product, but to demand it is bad business sense, so as far as PR goes it is a good subject to avoid. Add to that the free marketing they receive, as I've mentioned in earlier posts. At the same time, its asinine to go up to them and demand they pay you for a template you think is phenomenal. So what is there to do but let the market decide?

Many of us agree, it might benefit from further attention.

m127 wrote: As far as I know, templates for sale have hundreds of users, Mat does too. This means without doubt that people, not you two or Wul, people in general (those several hundreds users of paid templates) are willing to pay for good templates and resources.

I'm sorry, do you know how floored I would be to have 100 users who paid $10 a pop for my product? Let alone if Mat had 100 at £100 pounds, gross profit of £10,000? So basiclly 1/20th of the 2,000 lemur users (don't know where that number came from but lets roll with it) bought is product? If that is the case, that is ****ing awesome Mat, but I somehow doubt it, nor do I expect him to reveal any numbers.

This thread has jumped the shark several times, most recently:

Joe Soap wrote:Okay . . . as concisely as possible, because I've spent too much time and mental energy thinking about this.

Firstly - I don't think there's any putting the genie back in the bottle or dissuading the commercial guys from attempting to establish a market for their efforts.

Secondly - I don't disagree on principle that they have every right in a free society do do so . . . but as has become abundantly clear, this development isn't without issues or complications, especially around a product of this nature.

Art meets Commerce . . . it's a bit like drums, bass, guitar et vox. It's all been done before, John.

And so it is what it is - the market will decide, and we will either figure out how to peacefully and hopefully fruitfully co-exist as a community of artists or we won't.

Whole lotta silly bullshyte went down in this thread, I will put my hand up and take responsibility for my part in that. I urge people now to examine their own motivations, as I have mine (conclusion: not entirely selfless . . . ) and let's move on.

Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with people making a buck from their hard work, if they think there's a market there and they can defend it from being eaten from the bottom up by genuine community effort well then fair play.

While acknowledging Macciza's arguments about quality concerns re: bad commercial templates reflecting poorly on Lemur as a product or platform - I think any such concern appears misplaced when directed toward aU. His stuff absolutely shows off Lemur, regardless of whether there's any truly advanced scripting involved or not. I used Cubendo for years - and his work looks like fantastic value.

Much of what the commercial guys use as justification for their actions rings true - the cupboard is a bit bare in terms of plug n' play content. Liine haven't really addressed this and I've come to accept that given the size and makeup of the company . . . as I perceive it, but I have no insider knowledge . . .they probably can't - relying instead on a groundswell of community support.

The commercial experiment . . . who knows, as distasteful as some find it, might be the shot in the arm the platform needs (and I think it needs one, as things stand).

Far more distasteful than the act of selling templates itself . . . have been some of the underlying attitudes and assumptions underpinning certain arguments in support of commercialisation.

That cuts both ways, to a certain degree.

So there it is.

Everything worth pulling from this discussion is up there. What we have now is the degradation of a 13+ page thread into intellectual pissing match between two talented people who are stinking the entire forum up with their argument. *Please* take it else where. Hire an attorney or something. Since the inception of this thread, the quality of posts on the forum have plummeted as has our collective productivity. As a moderator for other forums myself, I can say one thing, what this thread has become is absolutely bad for the community. For the love of god, behave yourselves and find another medium to resolve your conflict, please stop bumping this thread.

There's been nothing intellectual about this pissing match!

So when are you gonna apply to be a mod then Traxus? It is the next step in the masterplan, no?

Joe Soap wrote:There's been nothing intellectual about this pissing match!

So when are you gonna apply to be a mod then Traxus? It is the next step in the masterplan, no?

*pissing match over intellectual property.

And I've got doubts as to whether a moderator whom also has a for profit template would fly, especially considering liine's need to stay neutral on this subject for the time being.

@Traxus

This thread should have been moderated immediately when it started to get derailed with insults, accusations etc. I am sorry for my contribution - but nobody has ever called me a thief - neither in real nor virtual life. It was not a pissing content on my side... But probably it would be better if I ignore this shower of insults. I will. And my great apology for the mess.

@Joe
We all run the risk of all products being outdated and not supported despite our time investment. NI Kore anyone? I have got a massive library of custom patches with no future. There is a huge chance my MC Pro will not support Nuendo 7 (my main DAW) due to Avid policy. I am sure neither Steinberg nor Avid will make up for my time spent on learning and customizing this device. And the costs of Lemur + $$ for the template are really minimal...

You keep saying that.

The email quoted by wul would seem to contradict this supposed "neutrality", I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of said communication.

That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

And to keep all the disenfranchised genius programmers that are scared away by the non-commercial nature of the platform . . . X-Code and the AppStore are ---> thataway.

Anyway, it's been fun watching you guys claim that you (partially) sell Lemur licenses on the back of your templates when the reality is quite the opposite . . . then turn around and complain bitterly when that same low barrier to entry threatens to bite ys in the ass.

Also enjoyed the simultaneous downplaying of revenues involved (the userbase is much MUCH larger than forum membership would suggest) while claiming these paltry sums are such a huge incentive to draw talent to the fold.

And so . . . has my original question been answered?

Joe Soap wrote: That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

My full support for paid content comes since the JM days. I suggested it several times. I have some professional work done that I have not shared because I do not believe in this idealist model (which has NOT worked to its full potential), and the fact is that the vast majority do not believe in it either, with some welcome exceptions, like AB.

They would not have to rebuild anything whatsoever, but just implement certain features. Namely, for example:

- A commercial developers section in the forum.
- Support sections in the forum for each developer/brand.
- An in-app purchase system from Lemur for all this commercial content.
- Since all of the above have a cost for Liine, Liine could create a FAIR fee scheme for developers, like Apple does.
- A third file type only available for commercial developers so their work is protected (Dexter was a mere template, remember? And it was CLOSED to third party development).
- As with any other such scheme, Liine could reserve the right to accept or reject pro devs based on fair conditions of service and reputation.

Benefits:

- Additional quality content.
- More Lemur users because of the attractiveness of said additional content.
- An extra source of income for Liine.
- More pro devs attracted to develop specifically for Lemur.
- Liine could keep working from within Apple via iPad, BUT W8 supports multitouch too, and MIDI support multitouch for W8 is coming; ie., Liine does not have limit themselves to Apple or to anything, a new multitouch hw could be produced as well.

Other points:

- The only-share model has already been tried for many years. Lemur has not grown to its full potential in 10 years. Fact.
- When JM attempted to sell premium content, they FAILED, because it was super overpriced (remember several hundred euros for the Dexter upgrade?) FAILURE, no commercial vision
- When JM released the Mu for free, it failed because numerous similar tools came up at the same time. These tools were more attractive overall.
- Nothing would change for the worse really: the user community library would still be there, and all users and new users can still share if that's what they want to do. The commercial implementation would be an addition to the existing model and would not technically be affected in any way.
- The market still decides, as ALWAYS. Fact: commercial templates have several hundreds of users. Ie., fact: people are indeed willing to pay for quality content.
- Commercial devs still have their own reputation to take care of; the market automatically takes care of this. When a dev fucks up, the community whines; when the community has grounds, the dev is fucked, usually for good. I doubt any rational dev out there wants to **** himself up. Doubt it.


just from the top of my head, but there's material to build up from.


FOSTER GROWTH, MONETIZATION, BUSINESS because all successful models are based on this: a reversed domino effect so Lemur expands in all directions.

Joe Soap wrote:
That said, Liine have only two ways to go on this issue as I see it - either rebuild the application to support commercial development or to craft a license to disallow it.

I don't think that either of those are viable, rebuilding the app sounds like a hefty, unprofitable task, basically navigating away from the .jzml file into something more like a .dll that also included licensing... and writing a EULA to prevent sale of templates is like saying you cant sell anything you write in a word processor we sold you. Once paid for, its your tool to do as you wish vis-a-vis all of the laws allowing the jail breaking of iOs devices...

I've batted around a couple of other, equally un-viable ideas. If the sky rained money and Lemur became a free app, a EULA preventing the sale of templates *seems* like it would be more reasonable and enforceable (enforceable with all of the money they would have to pay their lawyers with). Alternately, if they were to hire out creation of/buy out existing templates for software and perhaps drop the price of the app, it might seem more appealing to the masses as an affordable one stop shop for touch screen software control. (but how do you decide how much a template is worth..?)

And of course, a fifth possible position, they continue to remain neutral on the matter and let the market decide regarding payed templates. Laws regarding prior art are always in effect, copycats take a legal risk that quite frankly, liine has no hand nor investment in. Except maybe (please) when their discussion board becomes a medium for violently resolving such issues.

But alas, I'm bumping a thread that I very much want to see fade into the archives.

[edit] minor silliness removed - no bones broken

The options I outlined earlier obviously exclude a middle somewhere along the line too, which is to do nothing.

It's probably very amusing to the guys, watching us debate the Future Of The Platform / Company like we had a seat on the friggen board, if they take much notice at all.

WHERE ARE THE MODERATORs?

I'd seriously recommend Przemek to contact his lawyer to

a) kick m127's ass OR AT LEAST
b) force the owner of this forum to delete all allegations AND to better moderate it in the future

I would expect a consequent and clear statement from Liine here. Not on the topic itself but on fact that they DO NOT ACCEPT the style of m127 at all. To protect the community and themselves.

I know the internet is full of crap people. But in similar threads I participated in the past the community at least tried to keep that away from their community. Kind of inherent housekeeping. A fact that makes it even worse here. So many people simply continue the discussion w/o reflecting about m127's unacceptable and legally relevant allegations. Come on guys ... until Liine jumps in to sort it out, YOU should protect the community from this bullshit blaiming based on NO FACTS.

OK! EVERYBODY JUST CALM DOWN!!

Let's everyone just take a bit of time out and try to relax a little.
It is one thing to discuss 'possibilities' and another to make allegations.
It would be great if we could discuss the issue with out attacking other players . . .
Pms have been sent to various members about their behaviour . . .

This is a very complex issue with many various opinions on different sides of the central issue - Commercial templates effect on the community . . .

I personally don't really like the idea of 'commercialised' templates being promoted for a variety of reasons . . .
I feel that it could negatively affect the OpenSource Community through theft and a reluctance to post due to possible theft . .
This has occured in other openly-editable development environments ie M4L - where 'free' content has been repackaged as 'commercial' by others . . .
I dislike the idea of 'in-app' purchases and even more so if it ends up with many variants of common themes and no way to judge quality before purchase . . .

So far we have already seen some Lemur packages 're-packaged' with various shortcomings in attributions - the most recent being 'Mu 1.3' - not overly impressed by that, but awaiting further details . . .
The possibility of this sort of thing happening only increases with commercialisation - and it should be something that is overseen, but who would do that?
And then the requirement for Liine to admin the whole system as well would take time I would rather they spent developing, rather then chasing trademark violations . . .
Already there seem to be people who are prepared to claim as much ground as they can without clear guidelines or any control (on either side) . .
I think it is something that Liine would rather not get too involved in due to the potential 'can of worms' that it could end up being . . .
If people are hell-bent on 'monetising' their particular idea, maybe another environment is more suitable - like an actual iOS app rather than a Lemur project . . . Or 'donationware' . . .

Anyway - as I said earlier my main concern is how we continue as an 'open-source' community with regard to the 'commercialistion' efforts . . .
My initial response is to make it quite clear that all my stuff is for Non-Commericial Use without specific authorisation otherwise . . .
How on earth I can possibly try to enforce this I don't know but without it I am leaving myself completely open . . .
And if I have to purchase peoples offerings in order to find out then I may not ever actually know . . .

oh and re Dexter - Dexter was not paid-content for Lemur software but a firmware option for Lemur hardware - the Legacy Lemur was a FPGA that could have different firmware loaded.