commercial templates bad for the community?

[Traxus]

There is some fault of logic in some of the arguments which I cant help but notice....

Somehow along the conversation the notion that "Lemur library needs quality stuff so you shouldnt complain for paid templates" has crippled in, implying of course that:

1. the only way for a person to create a quality template is to be paid
2. the only way for a person contemplating to buy Lemur is by finding a paid template - the free ones cant accomplish that

These above notions are presented as facts, which they are not!

I need to find ONLY one quality free template to prove 1. wrong and I need to find ONLY 1 guy who came to Lemur out of a free template to prove 2. wrong

That is a bit of a slippery slope you have presented; no one is speaking in such absolutes, I think you may be mis-interpreting what some of us are saying (perhaps a bit of a language barrier). I don't believe any of us mean to imply (I certainly do not) that the user library is garbage, it is not. I in particular was saying that it is generally a resource of smaller bits that, with a bit of work, can come together into a larger all encompassing project. I also did not mean to imply that there are not any all encompassing projects out there Lpad, and the Traktor 26 control are but two of more examples. I was saying that the Lemur platform will certainly benefit form having more of these fully fledged projects around, paid or unpaid. Projects with extra attention to ergonomics, aesthetics, overall user interface and programming really show the muscle and reach that Lemur has to offer, especially to people who are not interested in, or are perhaps intimidated by programming. Think of it this way, more people who see a reason to buy the app means more revenue for for the developers to update the language and product with, which should hopefully equate to a better environment for us to develop in.

Quite frankly, many people I've spoken with are not at all familiar, or are only vaguely familiar with Lemur as an iPad app. Not much discussion has gone into the fact that each bit of marketing materials made for any of the paid templates is basically a free plug for Lemur. The sexier that you tube video looks, the sexier lemur looks, and to be quiet honest, the best looking marketing materials I've seen for the platfrom come from A): Liine, B): commercial template demos.

What I think needs to happen, is for more people to see that Lemur can take full control of Ableton, or Serato, or Modul8 or any midi/OSC capable software, and know that if they want to do that, they don't necessarily have to learn how to code the templates. Maybe they get it for free, or maybe they have to spring $10 - $15 to get something with lifetime updates and skip out on having to devote tens if not hundreds of hours into building it themselves.

Creating a template and selling it is a choice - its not a one-way ticket to quality.

Correct, I don't think anyone is postulating that paying for something automatically grants you quality. It should however provide you with an expectation of the quality, and a guarantee on behalf of the seller to match that expectation they have provided.

I do still think that paid templates play an important role of the general unwillingness of people to help others in the forums.

I disagree, try to look at it the way IBM handles Red Hat. They sell commercial distributions of it, but also aid greatly in the development of the source which also finds its way into free versions. Symbiotic relationships between open source and for pay software can, do, and will exist.

[Macciza]

Hi All

I also find some of these claims a little of the mark . . .
Lemur is for 'programmers, geeks' etc?? - Music Technology has always been suited to these people, Lemur is no different. It is also not that hard to develop in compared to general computer languages.
Paid content to attract users ??- I think traditionally it has been the free content and supportive community that has attracted people to Lemur, and the ability to feed there edits back to the community . . .
Though these factors are now perhaps slightly different with it now being on iOS as opposed to dedicated hardware, with many people unaware of its lineage and less experienced people expecting 'instant' solutions.
Paid content is better than free stuff - There is no real absolute justification to this argument and without actually purchasing it how can one know - A string of 'bad/rippedoff' projects could reflect badly on Lemur in general.
It seems odd that straight after a commercial chord project is released another similar commercial one gets released - how long before the next one I wonder
One could rightly expect these to be 'professional' but they may not be - despite claims of be 'Premium Templates' 'Lemur at it's best' or various far-reaching copyright claims/warnings . . .

Some things which do not seem to be mentioned - Lemur has a long history of OpenSourced provisioning since its inception several years ago. Just look at the User Library or previous Jazz Mutant site.
There are numerous free Mackie implementations available so I find it had to believe anyone developing a 'new' one would not reference them/use parts of them - how 'expertly' is an open question . ..
Traditionally people have been upfront about their use of others stuff and posted their own particular 'flavour' of otherwise generic work - and said so . . .
Many well known pro-muso's and proponents of Lemur have freely provided their personal projects as examples of 'customised' work flows as opposed to 'generic' solutions - this one of Lemurs strength
Also for me I must admit I like the 'understated' nature of a lot of the OpenSource stuff and earlier commercial offerings, as opposed to the somewhat 'grandiose/hype' marketing of the more recent ones . . .

jbgueluod TO experience is exactly the sort of thing I am concerned about, and Lemur is potentially no different. Someone could do the same here - and same as you 'I am not amused" . . .
This is what 'stealing' is, taking others work ands representing it as your own and charging for it. Opensource generally views this as 'bad' and if it has been 'copylefted' then it is even more wrong.
This is where it potentially becomes 'bad for the community' if it is left unquestioned/ unchecked - it makes people think twice about posting stuff for fear it will be ripped off and capitalised upon
Re: RTFM comments - Often it appears obvious that the person posting a question has not read the manual - so if it is a basic question that is the best response as it instills knowledge rather than a single solution.
It also hopefully avoids them simply using the forum as a resource to answer all there basic questions with little action of their own. And if they then eventually decide to sell their stuff as 'professional' well, hmmm ????

PS A bunch of posts came in whilst writing that aren't addressed here . . . .

[wul]

It seems odd that straight after a commercial chord project is released another similar commercial one gets released - how long before the next one I wonder

actually not too long
approx 40 scales , 12 keys, 4 inversions per chord , chord extensions, turn notes of the chord on/off, so the chord can be either 2,3,4 note or a single note scale,
i havn't begun to count the permutations, also you can slide from key to key (can't remember how i did that without hanging notes)

might call it overdose of vectors

[Macciza]

Cool
40 scales?? Damn I only got just over half of that, hmm what did I miss . . .
I'm working on a 'library' approach for this sort of stuff, more resource than product . . .
Kind of 'theoretical' in the various ways that scales /chord etc can be described etc
And then having this as something to build other stuff upon - players, visualisers, analysers etc

If you are interested we could exchange work to see where each of us is at, may help either or both of us . . ..

Cheers
MM

[wul]

i'll send you what i've got , i have your email address,
i guess it will be an aid to composition and theory. or musically cheating, call it what you will
i tried it last night recording on to genome through to bs-16i

[artsUNMUTED]

@Macciza - just to answer some claims and doubts of yours. My chord project has nothing to do with enChord - I haven't even bought it. It was started some time before enChord was launched - it was supposed to be a custom job done for a Hollywood composer. We have decided to release it to make it available for other composers as well. If you have taken time to compare them, both products are completely different in approach and in solutions implemented. I have received tens of emails with huge thanks from guys who have bought it and called it the best chord implementation so far. You haven't even checked my other templates - neither x1 nor qbedit nor qbmix are based on Mackie control emulations - just a few elements from MCU - mainly track names display - otherwise they are custom solutions made for Cubendo and Studio One. I have learnt MCU specs long before Lemur - I use to have one as well. And I do take my words seriously - I do claim my templates show what is best in Lemur and can't be done in TouchOSC for example. Please show me one available Lemur DAW controller for Cubase/Nuendo that can match qbedit/qbmix in terms of scope of control and visual design. Or one featuring the integration on pair with x1 with Studio One. Or ANY other hardware/software controllers apart from $$$$$ systems like System5. I am not bragging - just it seems that your attitude seems to be biased and unfair. Wul is talking about his attempt at chords - 4 inversions, 12 keys, 40 scales etc. - sounds good. I don't want to disregard his work or show any kind of disrespect - far from it. However, my rC is 24 inversions, 30 chord types, 243 scales and 32 keys with velocity control and full note display in every scale plus a complex memory bank system with full recall of over 120 parameters per one memory pad. Add to this elegant design and great ergonomics and hundreds hours of your time are gone. It took me two months to program it - every single piece of code is my own. I have made three prototypes - before I settled on the final one. It is not bragging - I am talking about the scale. I would never have done such a huge project for free - just for the sake of well-being. In my culture asking for donation is like begging or charity. However, I am sure you or Wul are perfectly capable of releasing such or a better product. Would it be better for Lemur community if it wasn't created? During 2 days it attracted several completely new users to Lemur and sure some more will come... So we should really focus on some peaceful coexistence and stop this atmosphere of distrust and bias.

And to say that Live Control 2 is free is the say as saying Mail in OSX is free. It is free for the user but somebody gets paid for doing it.

[jbgeluid]

@Macciza I realy think you are a bit hard on artsUNMUTED as I think he is the perfect example of someone who indeed will attract new users because of his amazing work, I own the cb package myself, I think it is truly great what he has achieved here, the amount of templates he is producing is simply amazing, and the quality is top notch from a user point of view ( I only know the qb set, but I expect his other work to be in the same league).
Also he is the perfect example of someone who is doing it all by himself, not some 'hacker" who is using other people's ideas at all.

And actualy I was thinking would it not be a great to create a "hall of fame" or "honour" of great lemur templates, of both free and paid templates and ideas that show the power of Lemur somewhere at the website? Or create a "approved by Lemur", "great Lemur templates" brand or something like that? Maybe interview some of the people that make them, provide links to their sites, and more?
The Lemur staff woul have to decide I think which templates are special enough at first, and maybe users could be enabeled to make suggestions too.

As for the "geek" thing, when you think a "normal" person is going to try to understand Lemur programming I think you make a big mistake.(I just declared myself "geek" just for trying I think ) For most people this is simply unthinkabe because of the complexity (I know everybody who understands Lemur or midi or osc does not feel this way, but let me ashure you for a beginner it is a huge mountain to "take", an enormous learning curve,this is what my non-geek friends keep telling me..). So when people offer "out of the box solutions " that will work for others, this will contribute to the spreading of Lemur in a great way. If I was running Liine I would promote and support all great solutions, paid or unpaid no difference, and be proud.

What WOULD make a difference is if someone is deliberately "stealing" to make big money just for the money, but seriously, do you realy think or feel this is happening here in any way? All I see is commitment, drive and love..

And just to be clear, I dont want to bash you or be negative at all, I highly respect your great work here, realy great job and great input, I just feel you have a bit of a narrow view on this subject and I am just trying to broaden your perspective a bit on this subject...

Oh and about the "RTFM" thing, actualy I was refering to the cubase forum, not you or anyone on this forum..

[Macciza]

Goddamn just wrote a longwinded response and it got eaten by the internet !!!
Can't seem to salvage it - Too late to write it all again. Will post tmw . . ..
Sorry . . .

[Joe Soap]

Ahahahaa!

This has happened to me a few times now attempting to post to this thread. But in the endup I've decided that's just the universe saying to me . . . "THINK MOAR!". So I have - but I haven't set any of those thoughts down yet.

When I do, I'll be using Notepad for the job though . . . not the forum messagebox! GG me! \o/

[wul]

I seem to remember doing that when I was a child, "my dads bigger than your dad"

So take this as a correction to my previous post
When I said 4 inversions, what I intended to say was up to 4 notes of each chord any note of which can be played in any of 5 octaves +
Added to that is every extension
When I said 40 scales I meant 40 different scales +8 modes of each scale anodyne ability to enter your own scale intervals