commercial templates bad for the community?

[artsUNMUTED]

@iABI Some curves are steeper that the other - and we are not Leonardo da Vincis. Life is too short to learn all skills we would like to have so we have to carefully select them. And some things just don't pay off. These are the reasons why we outsource huge amount of things in our life. Creating a Lemur project can be fun for some but most music people I know spend their time elsewhere...

Don't know if you're replying to me, but what I want to say, that is very subjetive, what maybe is good content for you can be a total useless thing for me in lemur world, and viceversa.

That's what I mean by diversity.

[lABl]

That sort of speaks to my prior idea about pre packaged templates that serve a purpose rather than an example. What we contend is that, paid templates are potentially more inciting for other developers who will be able to further display the reach of the platform, paid or not.

Sorry, but I am have not anything against of people selling templates (as i said before and several times), just I found a bit "disrecpecting " some actitudes, probably because I don't read correctly the english.

I think all people are interested in "show/see", the lemur potential , but are you guys saying there is not "stuff like that" in the user library???

All of this is very subjetive, I can't see anything special for example controlling a DAW, you can do with TouchOSC or similar, etc but I am not saying that is not good content, because I don't use it, sure that is very useful tool for many users.

Cheers,

[jbgeluid]

I was planning to release my own "not free" advanced Lemur controller template for cubase, but after reading all the negative reactions in this post I think I won' t, not on the Lemur forum anyway. I think I better just keep it for myself, or maybe put it on my website as a paid download. I personaly don't mind paying for software that offers extra value, and I cannot understand the negative reactions to paid templates for Lemur at all. You don't HAVE to buy the template, it is your choice. And I find 50 euro's a bargain for a good working complex template with free updates that will replace much more expensive hardware controllers that would take you a very long time if you would have to build it yourself ( if you could..). If you post your stuf for free that is also your choice I think..On the cubase forum there are also people complaining about upgrade and ipad app prices, I don' t get it..Just don' t buy it then, buy the cheap safira app, or use a free one. The value is in the advanced features, not offered in the cheaper apps.
Mine would even be more expensive because you would also need to buy bome midi translator to get it to work, it took me at least a year to learn lemur and bome, sort out the mackie protocol, get rid of buggs, and so on.
I have also been " stealing" from free stuff on the Lemur forum, and some people seem to think that is a reason why I should offer my stuff for free also. I think that this decision is up to me actually, and I don't see how you could " steal" from free stuf anyway.

[Traxus]

That sort of speaks to my prior idea about pre packaged templates that serve a purpose rather than an example. What we contend is that, paid templates are potentially more inciting for other developers who will be able to further display the reach of the platform, paid or not.

Sorry, but I am have not anything against of people selling templates (as i said before and several times), just I found a bit "disrecpecting " some actitudes, probably because I don't read correctly the english.

I think all people are interested in "show/see", the lemur potential , but are you guys saying there is not "stuff like that" in the user library???

All of this is very subjetive, I can't see anything special for example controlling a DAW, you can do with TouchOSC or similar, etc but I am not saying that is not good content, because I don't use it.

Cheers,

I think we agree on the etiquette of it, if you got a lot of help, you should return the favor either way, but especially if you're selling the template.

The user library has some good stuff, but there aren't a whole lot of all encompassing, really in depth templates. There are some and they are very good, but I tend to view the library more as a parts bin (not a bad thing) than a front end shop.

I've used touch OSC, if I recall, it did not have its own scripting language, or physics, which is why I drifted towards lemur. Much of what we do is possible in Touch OSC but you need to write scripts in other programs and then you risk having stuff not work cross platform (Mac vs Windows).

[Traxus]

I have also been " stealing" from free stuff on the Lemur forum, and some people seem to think that is a reason why I should offer my stuff for free also. I think that this decision is up to me actually, and I don't see how you could " steal" from free stuf anyway.

No, but you should give credit where credit is due. Contribute to and help out people who helped get your template to where it is, offer them a discount, or upload some modules from your template, something to return the favor. Being that your template is so specific, helping people grasp abstract concepts is probably the best solution.

The entitlement to our hard work that you and I find slightly enraging is not that far off from the entitlement that piggie-backs off of someone else's without proper thanks. That is basically the center piece of this discussion.

[lABl]

mmmm I see the theard transforms into very "subjetive /tastes thing", digital vs analog thingy.

So to finish my participation here:

You guys are free to sell your work, you probably spent lot of hours working on it, I know what that is, so I respect somebody want to get some bucks in return.

Cheers and have fun.

[jbgeluid]

I would gladly offer contributors and people I " stole" ideas from a totaly free version for shure, and I would also not mind mentioning them in the manual, with link to their free contribution / idea, and I would also not have any problems with posting some free parts/solutions of my project here. The case of the Artsunmuted guy is a bit different maybe, I am under the impression he build the biggest part of his app without help from the forum, and clearly for me this is not the case.. also I am not a programmer, and my app is probably a mess in that area, but hey, it works!

Maybe it is ok to conclude that the people who want an easy solution, without having to learn Lemur, should maybe pay some money for a finished advanced template? For shure it is wrong to ask the same from the people who helped develop on this forum. Much, much appreciated by the way!!

[Softcore]

There is some fault of logic in some of the arguments which I cant help but notice....

Somehow along the conversation the notion that "Lemur library needs quality stuff so you shouldnt complain for paid templates" has crippled in, implying of course that:

1. the only way for a person to create a quality template is to be paid
2. the only way for a person contemplating to buy Lemur is by finding a paid template - the free ones cant accomplish that

These above notions are presented as facts, which they are not!

I need to find ONLY one quality free template to prove 1. wrong and I need to find ONLY 1 guy who came to Lemur out of a free template to prove 2. wrong

Here is proof 1
Here is proof 2


Creating a template and selling it is a choice - its not a one-way ticket to quality. And yes, I do still think that paid templates play an important role of the general unwillingness of people to help others in the forums. As much as people who sell templates say it is their right to do so, (and nobody ever claimed it wasnt) I retain the right to keep my opinion.

Oh and jbgeluid, about Bome's Midi Translator Pro - you should have asked for help man, I wouldnt charge you! lol

[jbgeluid]

I agree with you it is a choice, and you are also right about the quality argument. Shure there are great things available for free. It is all over the internet..For me it is just that is has been a tremendous amount of work to create a template that has a nice and fast workflow, and probably a lot of unexperienced people who are gona use it will need some basic support to realy understand the concept and to get it working, because of the general complexity of lemur, wireless, cubase remotes and so on, so getting some money for the effort and support just feels right to me, and it will also keep away the less serious users. But maybe I could go for donationware instead, and offer no support or updates..that is probably more convenient anyway. It is not about the money for me, but if I myself am happy with software I use a lot, usualy I buy or donate if possible..
I made a free template for cubase on touchosc a few years ago, only to find some guy had copied it, changed the colours and released it as his own on all the big sites, asking people to donate.. Now that got me realy worked up..he did withdraw the donate request on his website after I asked him to do that, but I was not amused to say the least.

And about the forums and general unwillingness, I don't experience any of that on this forum, or any other? I think this and most user forums I visit are great, it is a totaly new way of learning and teaching. Shure there are always some users that enyoy pissing of less experienced users. ( question: is there a way to do this or that? Answer: yes RTFM..). But in general most people are patient and very helpfull I think, and I also don't see the connection you make with paid software and general unwillingness?

BTW very glad to hear you are a bome- expert as well.might come in handy some day, and for free! Thanks!

[Phil999]

good thoughts again - donation is also an option. And copycats are also a pain!

About providing help in the forum: I think this is a personal thing. If one is willing and has time to share knowledge and experience, fine. If one doesn't, I find it alright, too. We may have a family, kids, a hard job that doesn't give much room for going through forum posts every day. I spend about half an hour every day to visit internet forums, sometimes more, have e-mail contact to forum members, which makes about 180 hours per year. And I'm pretty sure it's more than 180 hours.

But it is also for another purpose: I find that music industry and home-made music is on a rather low quality level. If I can use my experience I've gathered in the last 3 decades and help aspiring composer or musician a little bit, I'm happy. Most of the time it doesn't pay off, but what do I know? Some comment here, some post there, an instruction or installation on location, an evening at the mixing desk, may have helped to solve a problem or has given a new idea. And it might happen that you get a call from a stranger for a well paid job. It's possible, but probably less possible if you keep everything for yourself. I don't know.

I love the saying "what goes around comes around". Providing expert advice in real life and in forums gives you a good reputation, which is of course not the purpose, but it can also open doors that would have been invisible to you if you never gave something by heart, or never established a certain fame. And it does pay off a bit, although not always in the form one expects. Giving/sharing is an expression of abundance.