commercial templates bad for the community?

[wul]

I guess that's it then . The end of the line, as it were.
We might as well all act accordingly .
It was good while it lasted.

Well done. The few

[Macciza]

I just find a lot of it does not add up in my mind.
Yes it is 'programming' software but its not C++ or Objective C - lots can be done quite easily by novices, and we help them.
If you did not look at any of the public projects how can you say there 'just a few pro-level projects available'?
And what is this standard lemur target(ableton, dj etc) there are lots of different users of lemur in lots of different ways.
And what makes you think the free projects are 'mediocre' - there are some extremely good free projects, some quite unique too
There is existing projects that pretty much fully implement Mackie Control protocol and various Cubase generic remote stuff etc

For me this Forum is about community - and helping others out to achieve what they want and expand their knowledge/abilities etc
So I guess my main issue in it all is the lack of contribution on your part - apart from advertising a 'product' with hype . . .
Just imagine how we feel, as a community who helps each other out and an unknown someone comes along and offers nothing but 'product'
Surely you can understand that side of things - we know nothing about you - you could have a Masters Degree in Computer Programming or you could be a 'hack' . . .
You projects could be really efficient masterpieces of code or kludged together inefficient hacks - we have no idea - but you say your stuff is great and ours is no good.

I think if you had made some contributions to the community beyond your commercialisations the response would be quite different - it has been with others who provide both sell stuff but also contribute free stuff
It does not need to be anything massive - some helpful exchanges in a discussion, a little bit of code here or there, maybe a minor module - of course a lite version (like matts sequencomat) would be great too
So it creates the situation where I have to wonder whether I should look at selling modules for others to use in making there stuff - or to have to try to effect some sort of control through copyright ie CC BY-NC-SA
Or do I just keep contributing and eventually have someone take my work and possibly not attribute anything to me or contribute anything to the community
And there are many people here who have spent an awful lot of time on there own unique contributions or to helping others sort out other problems for mutual benefit

I guess it comes down to a kind of 'Contribute to the Community knowledge and we are all richer, as opposed to selling something to that community and them gaining little . . .
I would certainly be interested in seeing how you structured / coded your stuff - I am just not prepared to pay for it without any knowledge/proof of its quality or usefulness for me.

[artsUNMUTED]

@Macciza

Thanks a lot for your insightful response. Just few comments:

1) Liine stuff told me that composers using sample libraries are not their main user base and target - that's my reference to the standard Lemur user.
2) I have checked the available projects after I have bought Lemur (when it was released) and nothing was of any interest to me due to my special needs. I didn't say that it is mediocre stuff - I only said that there we really lack off-the-shelf pro-level products that would appeal to broader group of users. "Medicore" wasn't aimed at anybody - I used this word to describe the attitude.
3) My coding is awful and puny compared to Jay's templates - I didn't say it was superior to anything - my first templates were a mess and in many aspects still are - but they work as expected - I just wanted to pay your attention to the scope of work and all the peripherals - it can't be done in a day or a week.

This discussion gets really apocalyptic but now I can understand the bitterness. Anyway I am getting back to testing my new project for 3 amazing Spitfire Albion libraries. I have made the template because it can't be found in the free or premium section on this website. I would buy it from anyone for $20 in a blink of an eye. But I can't find it either. Would you do it for free for me? Or for $20? Or for $200. Probably not because you value your time. Yes, it could be me who could share it for free... Would it be useful to you? For sure you could look at the coding and say it is not up to your standards. But there are some people who bought these libraries for 1000 GBP plus VAT and will not have any problems with spending additional $20 to have all the resources facilitating their workflow. As said I would buy it in a second.

I can see your points, though. My fault I didn't share anything or I haven't even asked for help on this forum - I was just too busy with my projects and life in general. I will do my best to take all of this into perspective. I will definitely not "advertise" on this forum again. And I will never "hack" anybody's work (and I have never done that).

Przemek

[whatisvalis]

I've got no issue with commercial templates. Maybe just keep the commercial stuff off the Liine boards? Go advertise on KVR etc.

[youme3]

I just find a lot of it does not add up in my mind.
Yes it is 'programming' software but its not C++ or Objective C - lots can be done quite easily by novices, and we help them.

The fact is, that I am f.e. not at all interested in getting familiar with it. I'd really like to use my very limited time to make/enjoy making music. It simply frustrates me way too much to build my own templates. Since it takes too much time to get through all this little puzzles of coding and configurations, which I do not understand at all . And that only to make my templates "somehow acceptable" for my workflow? No ...

... I have made the template because it can't be found in the free or premium section on this website. I would buy it from anyone for $20 in a blink of an eye. But I can't find it either. Would you do it for free for me? Or for $20? Or for $200.

Exactly. I came to lemur because of your ad to the Presonus forum. Your StudioOne template was great right from the beginning. Nothing equivalent exists out there. And it even was getting better with the latest extension to control included Presonus plugins. With the work you put into it you fully deserve to get money for it. I would never ever be able to achieve something like this at all.

Even better, with the other commercial template I bought, enChord, the original price I paid for lemur is even less important to me anymore. I have my StudioOne under control, I can learn a lot about chords and all is fun controlled with lemur on my iPad. This is cool. Thanks to linee, arts/unmuted, enchord! I am looking for more professional templates. And I (!) am more than happy to pay for it

@Macciza: I repeat myself saying that commercial templates are also a win potential for you, since it attracts tremendously your platform. An effect that shouldn't be underestimated. Look f.e. to RapidWeaver or to u-he synthesizer plugins. There you get all this community stuff for free as well PLUS commercial, maintained end-2-end add ons/soundbanks. And that for me makes the whole packages/products complete. Not one of them, all together!

My 3.25 cents ... off now

[Traxus]

I've got quite a bit to say on this topic. Admittedly, some of it is a bit of defensive hostility but try to take into account that it not directed towards any individual, and more a frame of mind.

I thought long and hard about the distribution model for my Serato Template, Traxus Scratch Live. I was considering something like a kick starter, where I would release the template to the public after raising enough to buy Serato's advanced audio interface, whereby I could make a template that supported 4 decks. I thought about landing users on pages and pages of banner ads, as well as a couple of other models, including releasing it for free. I eventually settled on $10 a pop, because that's what I would have paid if the template had not existed. As someone eluded to earlier, I made this template because I wanted and needed it, and nothing on the market fit the bill. I probably spent over 100 hours on it (partially due to overcoming the learning curve). There were 4 other contributors (people who gave advice along the way) involved. While none of them necessarily wrote anything that I used, I decided that if any of them showed interest, I would shoot them a free copy. Being that none of them seemed particularly interested in Serato, I generally opt to return the favor of giving advice in return whenever possible as well as throwing their websites some SEO juice on my blog when appropriate. I upload modules and lesser templates to the library as I see fit, but tend to hold onto the bits that I worked harder on, especially those of which I had to cut my own path to attain.

One of the reasons being, guys like Mat with Sequencomat, lABl, artsUNMUTED, more humbly myself, and anyone putting out templates, paid or unpaid, with advanced scripting, attention to ergonomics, aesthetics, and work flow are making Lemur look good. We are broadening the viability of the product in the eyes of potential consumers, making and editing videos, writing manuals and so forth. I paid a friend $100 to shoot and edit my video, and that was a huge favor on his behalf. Fact of the matter is we are putting hard dollars and man hours that would be expensive we’re you to contract them out into these projects. More importantly, while doing all of this we are subtly hyping the software/hardware being controlled as well as the Lemur platform; a platform that sells for $50 a license.

I’m not complaining about the cost, having learned the capabilities I think it is more than fair as a price point; nor am I insinuating that the developers are millionaires (but props if you are, you should be). I am saying that those of us who bust our balls to make and release really in depth templates are basically sexing up at least two entities that we have next to no stake in. Normally, a relationship like this would entail some type of attribution, or at least incentivization, but fact of the matter is, there is no real way to license an .xml (.jzml = .xml) file so this would be a moot request were it to be made. Mind you, I do have methods of tracking which file was distributed to which user, so the option to pursue someone who illegally redistributes remains open, but that is a side effect of my obfuscating the code more than anything else. The only other alternative is for liine to buy templates from us, and then include them in the default package, but I don’t think any of us are going to nag/expect them to do that. It is somewhat undue entitlement.

I sometimes get the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that the Liine staff holds disdain towards for profit templates. Should that be the case I hope the above paragraphs help to explain why someone could become rather irate about that. On a similar note, I see users who have nothing, or next to nothing contributed to the user library become passive aggressive towards users who release paid templates. That kind of hypocrisy should speak for itself. We have a phenomenal community here. As far as forums go, the pissing matches are few and far between and we are a rather productive bunch which is certainly why I choose to hang around, or bother writing 1000+ words on this subject. I just fear that too many of us are looking at the idea of paid templates from a bottom up approach.

Think of it the other way, what if it became apparent to other developers that making lemur templates was worth the sweat and hassle. Probably a long shot the way things stand now, but imagine if the community got flooded with 50 or so coders on or above the level of our finest. Some of you might cringe at the idea (our little niche might not be so little), but you have to agree, that would work wonders for the Lemur product and by extension the community. $10 for a comprehensive template for Reason?.. Hell, you already spent $500 on an iPad, $50 on Lemur, $300 on Reason, I guess I have a hard time seeing the choke point, nor why anyone should be entitled to a free copy.

Inventing, proofreading work written on, or selling someone a typewriter does not grant you inherent entitlement to that work. It is still theirs. Getting someone to proofread your work several times whilst never making an effort to return the favor is indeed a **** move. However, that’s where the beauty of a community comes in; I find them to be autonomously self-policing in manners such as this.

I guess part of the reason I decided to distribute in the manner that I did was to setup some kind of stop gap measure to protect myself from having my work grabbed up/duplicated and used as a marketing tool with little or no benefit to me. Among other things that template is my baby, it’s my first programming application outside of web languages, and kind of marks a point where I’m able to merge passion (electronic music) with profession (coding). I can damn near guarantee that no one has quit their day job to be a Lemur template developer. Between buying the domain names, making the video, buying screen capture software for the video, and paying to form an LLC I am nowhere near to being in the black. What I do have is an LLC that will allow me to write off my purchase of Traktor and other software on next year’s tax return. Taxes are going to rape me this year and I’d like a way to get some of them back in the future, is that such a sin?

This whole concern about it being bad for the community, I don’t buy into it. Certain personality types can cause problems, sure, but paid templates?.. either buy it or don’t. Rebuild it if you’d like but it’s generally going to be wiser to pay. Ask for hints if you liked something in particular etc... but try not to feel completely entitled to someone else's work. If it is as simple as grabbing bits from the library then you shouldn't have much issue reproducing it, right? Chill.

[Phil999]

I agree with Macciza, It is not that difficult to learn. I saw this myself when I started with Lemur, with no background in programming. After a while I could already create my own template with exact that functionality I wanted (bi-directional MIDI control with buttons and sliders arranged to my liking). I also believe we have a very good and vast user library. A huge source of knowledge where the novice can see how things are done. A special solution tailored to my needs was of course not there.

I've got no issue with commercial templates. Maybe just keep the commercial stuff off the Liine boards? Go advertise on KVR etc.

would you really go that far? Then we wouldn't be informed about new releases, or not even know about something that might be worth purchasing.

[Macciza]

Hi
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.

Ultimately I am not too fussed about the issue of commercial templates in the greater scheme of things. I guess it can spur on the opensource side as well .
I had been thinking about the issue of copyright for a while prior to this and this discussion and have now made my stuff Creative Commons

I don't have a problem with announcements of Projects on the Forum whether commercial or not but don't like full blown 'add' approaches . . .
I do like the idea of the people commercialising Lemur templates to have some involvement/contribution to the community via the Forum and otherwise .. .

Anyway good luck to you all and let's all just be fair and equitable about it all, as much as possible

Cheers
MM

[wul]

That being the case then you all owe me £10 for LPad.
With the proceeds ill buy live 9 and push......Not holding by breath.
Guess ill just have to wait for the very free live kontrol2

[youme3]

Hi
Just wanted to make sure everyone knows this is just my personal thoughts. I'm not actually connected with Liine as a company and am just doing moderation on forum.

Ultimately I am not too fussed about the issue of commercial templates in the greater scheme of things. I guess it can spur on the opensource side as well .
I had been thinking about the issue of copyright for a while prior to this and this discussion and have now made my stuff Creative Commons

I don't have a problem with announcements of Projects on the Forum whether commercial or not but don't like full blown 'add' approaches . . .
I do like the idea of the people commercialising Lemur templates to have some involvement/contribution to the community via the Forum and otherwise .. .

Anyway good luck to you all and let's all just be fair and equitable about it all, as much as possible

Cheers
MM

Fair and very good statement !

And thanks for clarifying your relation to Linee and this forum. I wasn't aware about it